The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?


#461

Steve, just to be clear, the person who wrote that was saying it was impossible for God to forgive without punishing someone.
qaz

Posts: 1825
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Ok but Jesus is the exact image of God and Jesus always did the will of his Father and Jesus is holy & Jesus forgave without punishing the sinner.


#462

Bob said:

You see Bob, that is were I as a ‘fulfilled grace’ guy has a problem with your view. God gives mercy to rebels, requiring no payment… And I am with you. But you go on saying that the 'core nature as love is able to forgive… whenever there is repentance.

I would like to just say that mercy does not need repentance. And our society, and our outreach as believers would be much advanced, if we do not hold repentance as a position of necessity, but more as a position of understanding. Love, as you say, dictates the position.

Look forward to your response.


#463

Well, since the epistle you’re reacting to here classically says things like, “IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1:9), I’m not seeing how you interpret it as declaring forgiveness “does not need repentance.”

Having said that, I’m sympathetic that we are better off to have our stance be forgiving, whether the offender is repentant or not, and I am inclined to see God’s love as akin to that. But from the perspective of the offender enjoying the reconciliation that goes with forgiveness, I expect in the way that life works, that there is a need to acknowledge our need for mercy.


#464

qaz, Hebrews 1:4 says this:" By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts and through it, he being dead still speaks."

Paidion, “Who is wise? Let them realize these things. Who is discerning? Let them understand the ways of the Lord are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them.”

Proverbs 3:18 “Happy is the man who finds wisdom. She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her.”

Proverbs 11:30 “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life and he who wins souls is wise.”

As I keep saying, the word of God was in the beginning(John 1:1). Jesus was speaking the same word as Abel. Some follow, some don’t.


#465

I only came into this thread to see what the resident Pantlelist was speaking about. I can’t say i was surprised to see what i discovered. No matter what the topic - whether basket weaving 101, zombies, or mutant ninja turtles - there’s always a Pantelist take on it. “From a Pantelist POV, zombies are cute little baby bunny rabbits, who enjoy rolling in the pigpen with piglets. Like the rest of us there they are in the new heavens & new earth, where there is no more crying, death or potty training.”

As for an atonement theory, i’ll share it with you when you can give a satisfactory answer to the following:

  1. Why is the creation suffering?
  2. Why is there anything & not nothing?
  3. What is beyond the end of the universe?
  4. Where did God come from?

#466

Origen:

Why won’t you share before then?


#467

Oh, COME NOW, Origen. I side with gaz on this one. He’s asking you a SIMPLE question. Pick one and run with it. There are MANY established positions. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity
http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/
https://www.gotquestions.org/atonement-theories.html

Let me quote from the conclusion, of the second article:

You are asking him to answer 4 questions…AND SOME CAN RUN VERY DEEP.

Why not just answer his simple question?


#468

Bob said…

That is the very, very, very idea that I and others have been proposing here for a while, that Jesus ‘came for the house of Israel’ Our reading of scripture as pertaining to us (here and now) may well be flawed… So roll with me, and I think you can. To say that 'we all need today to repent, for the idea of salvation in the modern evangelical idea is maybe problematic. My view is that Jesus took all, ALL sin away at the cross. Now, to denote who his redemption is or was for would be for Israel. But we do know that the promise to Abraham was that all nations would be blessed by the savior.

Bob, I enjoy this to a point, but at some place I have to ask are we reading the Scriptures or listening to well meaning folks wax eloquently on what they ‘THINK’ God is trying to tell us, when in all reality the bible is simply a historic document. We ALL are beholding to the cross, but Christ as it was written in the scriptures, came for one group of people.


#469

Since i haven’t read the thread, why don’t you list as many atonement Scriptures as possible & define “atonement”?

OTOH, why would i want to give an atonement theory? Does Scripture tell us to analyze it logically like Greek philosophers with our human pea brains, or believe in it?


#470

It is true that mercy can be given without repentance, and pardon can be granted without repentance. I understand “pardon” as letting go of any ill feelings towards the offender, and not requiring him to make atonement or recompense for his wrongdoing.

However, “forgiveness” unlike mere pardon, DOES require repentance on the part of the offender. Jesus said:

Unfortunately, many people use the word “forgiveness” as if it were tantamount to “pardon.” Once I heard a woman say, “Yes, I forgave him, but I’m sure as hell not going to go out for lunch with him.” Doubtless she meant that she had pardoned him. For true forgiveness includes restoration of relationship between people, whereas mere pardon does not. What if God said, “Yes, I forgave you, but don’t bother praying to me; I won’t listen!”
Would you consider that you had been truly forgiven?


#471

Yes I have been forgiven… You seem to be a troll who wants to somehow throw crap at the idea that I am a Person who belongs to God…


#472

Damn you to say that I or anyone is not a part of God’s plan… :wink:


#473

Well, my perception is that you are a well meaning guy who just told me what you ‘THINK’ God is trying to tell us, but “the very, very, very idea” that you and others have been proposing here for a while has long been fairly obvious to me. But I’m not seeing the Biblical argument for it. That is why when you objected about me referring to 1 John for forgiveness as conditional, I cited one of its’ texts that appears to contradict that. John does NOT appear to realize that Jesus “took away ALL sin at the cross” in such a way that it’s not longer vital for his Christian readers to seek forgiveness.

So now my impression is that you responded to that text, by repeating your own idea, but ignoring the Scripture I presented, even as you ask if anyone is really reading the Scriptures. If you are saying there’s another basis for accepting your very, very, very idea besides explaining it from the Scriptures, then maybe you should spell out that rationale (rather than just restate the idea, and say that just maybe it is valid).


#474

Please stop, Chad. You’re crossing the line. There’s no need for calling names and cursing people. I mean this. I get it that you’re going through something. Whatever it is, I absolutely sympathize. We’ve all been through chaotic, difficult times for various reasons, usually beyond our control. A huge common denominator of human life is suffering. Let’s love one another and hold one another up because we absolutely need one another.

It is very clear to me what’s happening here because I have had this conversation with Paidion on at least one occasion. You are defining forgiveness differently from Paidion’s definition. Paidion sees true forgiveness as the complete restoration of the relationship. When you think about it, this isn’t a bad definition. God may hold his hands out to a wayward child, in forgiveness, but the prodigal son still has to reach back and receive the forgiveness before the relationship can be restored. Dad is absolutely forgiving toward the PS, but the forgiveness cannot be completed until the PS repents (turns away) from his turning away and REturns to the Father. That’s the light-switch which, when turned on, allows the power to flow.

After some back and forth, Don and I realized that we already agreed with one another’s concepts–just not with the way we each labeled them. The labels do matter, but the agreement (imo) matters more. Far above even that, though, is the brotherly/sisterly love that matters most of all EVEN if it turns out that we are NOT in agreement. God knows the truth and He will cause us to know it the moment we are able to receive it.


#475

MM, Genesis 22:17-18 says this of Abraham “in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants…and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you obeyed My voice.”

Again in speaking of Abraham Genesis 12:3 says 'I will bless those who bless you , and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

This goes back to the beginning where God created male and female in His image, and He blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.”
God says the same thing to Noah who was a just man and walked with God(Gen.6:1). "So God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.”(Gen. 9:1)

Abraham was a righteous man who walked in the Spirit of God. In other words, he was a good seed( Matt.13:38 the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom) and was sowing or spreading the word of God (the seed: Luke 8:11). In this, he was bearing the fruit of the Spirit. God promises that when we sow the good seed, we will produce a good crop that multiplies. Matt. 13:8 says, “Still other seed fell on good soil where it produced a crop a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” Gen. 26:12 “Then Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold and the Lord blessed him.”


#476

That’s a cop-out. While we might NOT engage in philosophy…we NEED a theology. To me, theology is a roadmap - to understanding the Bible. Whether it is an established one (i.e. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, etc.) or one you come up with - on your own.

Atonement theories are covered, in academic theology classes - NOT philosophy classes.

Even the up-and-coming tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse . Along with Peter Popoff’s, miracle spring water. Needs some kind of theological foundation. :wink:

For the record, I think the Zombie Apocalypse …Is the most probable, end-times model. Based on my viewing, of The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead - TV shows. But I’m agnostic when it comes to the miracle spring water. But I don’t wish to deprive someone here - of experiencing a miracle. :slight_smile:

But on a more practical level. I follow the Anglican tradition…incorporating elements of Eastern Orthodox theology…Contemplation from Yoga and Buddhism (in the spirit of Franciscan contemplation)…and the Native American concept of Medicine (i.e. anything that heals) :smiley:


#477

I’m taking atonement to mean make righteous / justified. Here are the theories. sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of … ummarized/ A core Christian principle is that without Jesus being murdered, no one would be righteous. What I’m asking in this thread is how does Calvary justify people?


#478

I’m taking atonement to mean make righteous / justified. Here are the theories. sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of … ummarized/ A core Christian principle is that without Jesus being murdered, no one would be righteous. What I’m asking in this thread is how does Calvary justify people?

Thanks for the link. Of course we are never told how so we are all just speculating. But the angel did tell Mary that her son would “die for the sins of his people” “For the sins” of others suggests a substitution of some kind and this event was determined by God before the foundation of the world so this suggests God planned it rather then it happening because of an angry crowd.
So we know that since “the wages of sin is death” sin causes death both spiritually and physically but Jesus was sinless so he died for the sins of others.

So maybe instead of the “Penal Substitutionary theory” s/b called “The Death Substitutionary theory”


#479

I did just fine getting saved miraculously & for decades afterwards without a theology or philosophical speculation on this subject. So why would i need it now, if i never needed it before? Christ calls us to eat His flesh & drink His blood, not pick them apart with a microscope.

39 Ye search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eonian life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

As for an atonement theory, i’ll share it with you when you can give a satisfactory answer to the following:

  1. Why is the creation suffering?
  2. Why is there anything & not nothing?
  3. What is beyond the end of the universe?
  4. Where did God come from?

#480

Origen:

But why won’t you share it before then?