The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?

#885

Davo, all I saw is that you repeat that NT calls to obedience were all “FOR THEM.” I remain unclear about who you think constitutes “them,” and whether you think the Bible’s consistent emphasis on the cruciality of obedience is thus no longer relevant to us.

I again repeat my amplification of the question: “I’ve guessed that you see the Gospel and epistle writers as intending that their exhortations to obedience be understood as focused toward (an original audience of) Israel, and thus not to be understood as a call for others, especially after AD70, when everyone can see that the old need and approach to judgment was completed.”

Can I take your lack of direct response to mean that my grasp of your words is essentially correct?

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#886

Well, then Bob, you said you had a degree in some university… Fullerton maybe?

The problem with degree’s is that you are trained to think a certain way. No offence Bro, but until you look outside the box you ain’t going to get it. EVERYTHING here is outside the conventional thinking and that is so cool!!

Good luck in your search.

Well, I’ll be honest. David is head and shoulders above anything I will ever be able to contribute. Thank you for pointing that out. I appreciate it.

Love ya… Chad

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#887

Davo, you cite six texts to claim that “the apostles’ call to faithful obedience was that they not fall short of THAT Day” (which you interpret as AD70), But I don’t see that any of them refer to or sound like AD70. E.g. your citation of 2 Pet 2:20’s call to not be entangled in corruption is immediately followed by specifying that “the day of the Lord” that will require readers’ repentance is when "the elements will be destroyed and we can live in “a new heaven and a new earth, the home of the righteous” (3:10-13).

It is not clear to me that the first centuries believers should have been convinced that Roman devastation in AD70 had brought this long prophesied state of living in a new earth where the creation’s violence against one another is ended. Indeed, I’d sympathize with their reading that this remained their future hope.

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#888

This is going to get good…

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#889

[quote=“maintenanceman, post:886, topic:6381, full:true”]
“Well Bob, until you look outside the box you ain’t going to get it. EVERYTHING is outside the box…”

LOL, I’ve looked outside the boxes taught to me and abandoned many of them. But I’d agree if it is being most outside everyone else’s boxes that is compelling, your view must be right :slight_smile:

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#890

So what if no, everyone did not have to repent, Jesus did the repenting through His sacrifice?

What if your idea (that you said) that repentance is a life long idea or process is not true? That Christ actually forgave your sin? That Jesus gave HIS LIFE for humanity?

That we in this time are moving through the understanding that Christ is our savior. Ours and everyone’s…

Sin is going to be dealt with by the spirit…

This is a beginning. :grinning:

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#891

Jesus repented?? For me?? That is devastatingly illogical.

Of Course I believe that Christ ACTUALLY forgave my sins. And that he gave his Life for humanity. But you mean something different by those words than I do.
THIS is the point I hope davo and Bob get to, or we’re just going to grope around in the fog more and more.
What if repentence is necessary? What then? A different ball game. If people do need to turn their lives around, repent and believe - aren’t we responsible for preaching Christ falsely?
As long as words don’t mean the same to two different people. there’s almost no chance the will not talk right past on another.
Such as “Actually” - how else could it be done?

And this whole “Well, you’re just talking out of Orthodoxy” - perhaps a bit of b.f.? Most of us here are way out of orthodoxy in some ways, so let’s give credit to one another as responsible thinking adults. The arguments stand or fail based on reasons, not on where someone comes from.
Peace bro. :slight_smile:

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#892

So we are in agreement? :smile:

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#893

I don’t know. What do you MEAN by ACTUALLY forgave my sins?
We agree on the wording, but perhaps not on the connotation of the wording.

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#894

I was quoting you… You said ACTUALLY, which to me is a very positive understanding of what Christ did.

I understand your hesitation to believe that Jesus did everything to conquer our sin. But that is my and others here on this forum’s belief… Christ did EVERYTHING necessary for each of us to be seen as acceptable to the Father.

Look forward to your view.

Love you,

Chad

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#895

What hesitation? I have none.
BUT - and this is where things always get squirrely - when you say ‘conquer’ - what are YOU saying? There is no more sin? That’s part of the FOG, imo brother. Read I John .Look in your own heart. Who among us is without sin?
‘Sins’ or ‘Sin’ - the acts or the power - which is conquered?

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#896

The problem is that you continue to somehow think that at the time of Christ’s return, we are going to live without what you call sin… And I would challenge you to verbalize what is sin in this 21st century? Who will make the call and how many will make the grade? Christ CAME In my opinion, we are moving ahead. So our views are different. My view is a good Gospel that God has sent his son and that the separation between God and man (each of us) has been obliviated by the sacrifice of Christ.

I look forward to your rebuttal.:smiley:

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#897

Dinner is being served. I’ll try to get back to ya later pal.

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#898

Cool, But I have to say that I received an amazon gift card for fathers day… Very excited on how to spend it.:smile:

Eat well my friend. We will talk soon.

Peace,

Chad

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#899

The Bible says that the church is to be built upon the apostles and their teaching. so I’d say that if such a revelation were true, given Paidion’s long list of apostolic texts insisting that our own repentance is crucial, it would mean that none of the Bible writers got the memo that Jesus’ sacrifice meant that changing the direction of our life and loyalty was repudiated as the focus of God’s consistent pursuit.

I.e. that the Bible has led virtually all of Jesus’ followers 180 degrees wrong about the importance of repentance, and only a handful like you have had the ability to recognize it.

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#900

Bob… it is disappointing you feel the need to tout your scholastic prowess as a means of justifying a given position whereby you keep asking the same basic question just dressed up slightly differently each time simply feigning I’ve not answered these questions. Let me show you just from this thread alone where I HAVE answered you. So again you raised this above…

So let me repeat from HERE…

It is more than CLEAR as to who THEM constitutes and anyone with your publicised smarts ought to be able to draw the direct and distinct connect between the topics of parousia and obedience we have both been discussing here in terms of “them”.

So here again I find your supposed inability to track along even more disappointing. Let me furnish you with your previous repeated question and my repeated response… and IF you tell me you still cannot follow I might just be genuinely amazed. From HERE…

And I likewise went on to say this to you…

CLEARLY, Bob, there is neither hint nor thought in denying any injunctions and in particular to discussing obedience as somehow not being… “relevant to us.

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#901

I agree. Even the Zombie Apocalypse…as the most probable, end-times tribulation model…is thinking outside the box.

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#902

oooh ouch, that one hurt. From my standpoint this is the problem that is destroying the church and maybe Christianity in general. You assume you know what the followers of Jesus were thinking and doing in all aspects of their life when we really have very limited resources as to who they were and how they lived.

As JB Phillips wrote, repentance is a change of heart. Wanting or needing to change in some sort of spiritual way. Seeing a new way, seeing a light in darkness. This in my opinion was exactly what the followers of Christ had.

But when we get to the point when we point a finger at someone and say you have to do such and such to get to where you need to be, we are quite literally turning folks into Pharisees.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

My position is pretty basic, The church forever has been telling people they have to repent. But true repentance is a matter of the heart, so those who are NOT called to serve, try to make themselves look like they are. But without the heart, there is no true repentance, and thus the service is only superficial. In my opinion, Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, whether they realize it of not. But the ones who do get it, or are called into service, I believe are special. They get a glimpse of the creator. :grin:

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#903

Davo, I’m sorry you mistook my reference to my journey as an attempt to justify my view. It does not. Formal education is over rated, and the reality is that the highly educated disagree on most everything, and that I rejected most of my scholastic career’s emphasis. I cited my background in the context of sympathizing with others here that some of your language was difficult to follow, and suggesting that my possibly greater opportunity to study varying views was not helping me grasp your own system (i.e.precisely that it provided me no superiority at all). I was just asking you to respond in a simpler way.

I suppose it’s a compliment that you are again suggesting that I am lying about my “supposed” lack of ability to understand the implications of your statements. LOL, the alternative would be to assume that I am too uniquely stupid to follow your clear persuasions.

My perception is that in this long interchange, we are not progressing toward engaging the substance, texts, or relevant exegetical issues here, and seeing that my questions produce increasing resentment, I’m going to leave it to others to sort out your proposals.

All the best to you, Bob

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#904

I quite agree that true repentance involves the heart. But I’m afraid that all such talk about God only wanting some of his children to be servants and “get a glimpse” of Him is unfamiliar to me, and I see no basis for insisting that God does not want all of his children to serve him and be able to glimpse him.

I was challenging your statement:
What if everyone does not have to repent since Jesus did the repenting through His sacrifice?”
I see no convincing basis from you or Davo to believe that the Bible writers thought Jesus’ sacrifice replaces our own calling to repentance, nor to reject the Bible’s consistent presentation of God as seeking the repentance of all of us.

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