The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?

#965

I’m not sure he focuses on that or on condemnation, but he sees the main reason God deals with sin, and that Jesus comes, is because our sinful lack of love is destructive to God’s purpose in our lives, and we need to become people of the new covenant who as Paul says in Romans 8 find that God’s will is written in our hearts and lives.

His focus is on addressing arguments that the cross was about God’s need for satisfaction by violently inflicting sin’s penalty on Jesus. He argues that the Bible’s pins this violence upon the Romans and the Jewish establishment, and that interpreting it as actually done by God in order to meet his own need for violent punishment distorts the narrative.

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#966

I ordered a used copy from Amazon for $3 + shipping.

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#967

I have two new books heading my way, but i definitely may read Weaver’s atonement book after them.

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#968

There is only one atonement view. That Christ came and took care of all sin, that God the father has because of the son, extended total grace to all. Good luck to you all who tend to disagree.

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#969

Might it just happen that the only view that exists is yours? :wink:

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#970

The fact of the matter is that the NT says unbelievers are condemned. IMO retributive models do a better job explaining why, even if they have flaws of their own.

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#971

How do such models explain why unbelievers should be condemned?

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#972

Bob,

Because everyone has sinned, and per retributive models the only way to make up that debt to God is through vicarious suffering. An unbeliever may live an otherwise righteous life, but as long as he’s sinned even one time, he needs the blood of a perfect sacrifice to be in right standing with God.

How would you explain why unbelievers are condemned if God could forgive them without a perfect blood sacrifice?

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#973

Bob’s response. I think it’s because condemnation is sealed (not by any imperfection, but) when our lives choose a course of rebellion, and we refuse to turn to God and his ways, (which can be expressed by turning to Christ). And since NT writers see Christ as embodying God’s true nature and values, they perceive that rejecting him is tantamount to rejecting God and his ways, and so emphasize that this would show that such unbelieving folk remain in the stance that is condemned already.

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#974

An article in today’s Patheos evangelical newsletter, raised some questions for me. Since it involves a mega-church near me…Which I have never visited yet. What happens if there are stories, regarding clergy misconduct? And you don’t know, if they are true or “fake news”? In other words, how do we judge the righteous or non-righteous - of the clergy?

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#975

Yes it may be, and I will challenge you as a admin on a universalist forum to site me as wrong??

Have at it.

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#976

There are many atonement views. But there is only one correct one. And I agree that the correct one is that Christ came, and through His death took care of all sin. But He doesn’t extend his grace to all, but only to those who submit to His authority. And the purpose of that grace is to enable His people to overcome wrongdoing and work righteousness (and that is a life-long process).

Here is the way that the apostle Paul described that grace and its purpose:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

So the grace of God saves us from SIN—not from the GUILT of sin so that God won’t be angry at us anymore but from SIN ITSELF. God doesn’t want us to do things that will hurt others because of our self-serving nature. He wants us to do loving things that will SERVE others. Paul said that God’s grace was given for the purpose of TRAINING us to renounce evil behaviour and to live sensible, righteous lives—to be PURIFIED and to be ZEALOUS for good works. This grace is NOT about God overlooking sin and not being angry at us anymore. If we continue to strive to get sin out of our lives, God won’t be angry at us anymore.

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#977

That is grace by works. You will have to work on that.

Once again we are loggerheads.

But, love you none the less. Even if you are Canadian. :smiley:

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#978

That is NOT grace by works; that is the gift of grace for enablement to work righteousness and avoid wrongdoing. The concept of “grace by works” is exactly the opposite of this. It is performing good works through self-effort in order to OBTAIN grace.

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#979

I tend to agree if you will stipulate that NOTHING needs to be done by said wrongdoer, in other words nobody needs to do anything to gain said righteousness.

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#980

Don this is double speak. You are Umm believing what you believe. And that is good. But you are not addressing the idea of grace, as a gift from God. God loves His creation and is understanding of how he made them.

You (and many evangelicals) are putting conditions on Christ’s atonement of Israel and the Gentiles.

Good luck and let’s see where this goes.:smile:

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#981

But there is something that needs to be done by the “said wrongdoer.” He need to appropriate this enabling grace or he will not receive it. He appropriates it by faith.

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#982

My Gosh Don, you are wrestling yourself into the dark ages. Good luck, and I want you to know that that position is not right. :smiley:

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#983

THIS IS NOT DOUBLE SPEAK.
There is a distinct difference between working in order to receive a reward, and receiving free assistance in order to be a better and happier person!

Oh yes I am. Not once have I suggested that one has to earn grace. It is indeed a free gift. But we don’t automatically receive it just because Jesus died for us. We have to appropriate it by faith or we won’t have it!

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive deliverance from sins and a place among those who are set apart by faith in me.’

Romans 1:16-17For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."

Romans 3:28 For we hold that a man is made righteous by faith apart from works of law.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

He made them GOOD! Read Genesis. Everything that God made He said was GOOD. They became evil by succumbing to Satan! Thus they have to be delivered from evil! This will happen when they appropriate the enabling grace of God through faith!

I don’t know what “many evangelicals” do, but I am NOT putting any conditions on Christ’s means of mercy. God wants righteous people, and that’s why Christ died—to enable people to be righteous. But He doesn’t force His enabling grace on people. If they don’t want to be delivered from sin, they will have to receive correction from God until they become actually righteous. God won’t automatically overlook their wrongdoing just because Christ died for them. HE DIED TO DELIVER THEM FROM WRONGDOING AND TO ENABLE THEM TO LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY.

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#984

I agree, but you or many of your cohorts have a problem with grace. If like you say above that receiving free assistance makes your life happier and better, I am with you 100%.

But, if you think it is necessary, we’ll go to war.

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