The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?

#985

Can a person not reject a gift?

Will God force you - like a rapist - to accept this gift if you refuse it? Is that the kind of love He wants from created beings?

Are you suggesting people are puppets who are unable to refuse God’s gift because they are like robots with no freewill?

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#986

Which always raises this question for me. If different prominent and historical churches and theologians, are promoting different atonement views. But they ALL agree that Christ came and took care of sin. Then what is the CRITERIA, for determining which view is correct? And why CAN"T we have multiple theories being correct? But they all have the component, attached to them…that Christ came and took care of sin?

Let’s view a discussion on Quora and let me quote a bit - from an answer or two:

These are just two of the multiple theories of atonement out there. Yes, they can be combined—and should be. God is able to be motivated by more than one reason for reaching out to us.

Throughout the Bible the central question is, “How can sinful man ever be accepted by a holy God?” Atonement addresses that, and each theory is multi-sided, but each also focuses on only one aspect of the core issue. Therefore, we need them all.

God takes sin seriously—much more so than we do. At its root, it is about our separation from God, and it is a chasm we cannot cross on our own. If it can be crossed, God will have to be the one to do it.

So, how can God make it possible for sinful humanity to fellowship with a holy God?

Leon Morris summarizes:

“It would be impossible to deal with all the theories of the atonement that have been formulated, but we might well notice that most can be brought under one or the other of three heads:

those which see the essence of the matter as the effect of the cross on the believer;
those which see it as a victory of some sort;
and those which emphasize the Godward aspect.
Some prefer a two-fold classification, seeing

subjective theories as those which emphasize the effect on the believer, in distinction from
objective theories which put the stress on what the atonement achieves outside the individual.” Theories of the Atonement

Then the author goes on, to expand on the Leon Morris summariies.

I guess that same problem arises…when zombies discuss theories regarding themselves.

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#987

Paidion,you’ve said you don’t think many Christians are perfect when they die (or something like that). So how many sins can a Christian commit throughout his life without having to go to hell when he dies? What’s the cutoff point?

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#988

It is quite simple and I will put it out, Christ has taken care of every sin of the world… Now we can start to talk about the afterlife that the ‘BIBLE REALLY DOES NOT ADRESS’ and were we are in the 21st century?

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#989

qaz, I’m surprised that you are still asking this question. I have explained to you that it is not a matter of “how many sins” or “how close to sinlessness” a person is, but whether or not he is the process of being saved from sin (wrongdoing). I’ve given the example of two human sons, one who is a rebel, and the other who is sorry for failing his father for disobedience, and who intends to do better in the future. I have asked you which one would be acceptable to the father. That is a little parable that illustrates how the heavenly father accepts those who are in the process of being delivered from sin, and rejects those who resist or oppose His offer of salvation from sin. However, even the latter are not rejected forever. After they go through God’s loving correction, they will be fully welcomed, as in Christ’s “prodigal son” parable. And in this loving correction, God won’t give them any more discomfort than is absolutely necessary.

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#990

Paidon, IYO can an unbeliever be in “the process of being saved” when he dies?

Would such unbelievers go to “always be with the Lord” as per Thess.4:17?

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#991

How could he be? If he is an unbeliever, he has not appropriated the enabling grace that is necessary for that process to begin.

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#992

Some so-called unbelievers say… “seeing is believing” — all who step through death’s veil step into His presence and none are left in any doubt — ALL believe.

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#993

Yep so now we can deal with this view…

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#994

Good answer, Paidon. You have answered correctly.

James 2:18 You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder! 20 O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

Matthew 8:28 When Jesus arrived on the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met Him on their way from the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the proper time?”

Mark 1:23 Suddenly a man with an unclean spirit cried out in the synagogue: 24 “What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are–the Holy One of God!”

Mark 1:34
And Jesus healed many who were ill with various diseases and drove out many demons. But He would not allow the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.

Mark 5:7
And he shouted in a loud voice, “What do You want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God not to torture me.” 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Luke 4:33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon. He cried out in a loud voice,“Ha! What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are, the Holy One of God!”

Luke 4:41 Demons also came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God.” But He rebuked the demons and would not allow them to speak, because they knew He was the Christ.

Acts 16:16 Now it happened of us going to the place of prayer, a certain girl, having a spirit of Python, met us, who was bringing her masters much gain by fortune-telling. 17 Having followed Paul and us, she was crying out, saying, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” 18 And she continued this for many days. And Paul having been distressed and having turned, said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out from her.” And it came out that hour.

Acts 19:15
Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but you, who are you?”

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#995

Davo, the inspired Holy Scriptures reveal that spirits are not in “His presence”, but kept in gloomy darkness & chains until the day of judgement. Where does Scripture say “all who step through death’s veil step into His presence”? Or if they did that they would then “all believe” with the saving kind of faith & be reconciled to God? Believe what? That they are hallucinating? In the presence of some kind of a god, or demon, or hell? And would such “belief” be sufficient to save them against their free wills by irresistible force (like puppets or robots) if their heart was still in rebellion & or demon possessed? Is that the kind of love Love Omnipotent seeks from the beings He created into existence?

The children of Israel saw astounding miracles, both at the time of Moses & the earthly ministry of the Christ, but that didn’t automatically force them to be saved without the cooperation of their free wills.

In the 2nd chapter of the book of Job, Satan is in the presence of God, but that didn’t suddenly force upon him irresistibly a saving faith & reconciliation to His Lord & Saviour. Even Satan’s minions believe, but that faith doesn’t save them:

James 2:18 You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder! 20 O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

Matthew 8:28 When Jesus arrived on the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met Him on their way from the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the proper time?”

Mark 1:23 Suddenly a man with an unclean spirit cried out in the synagogue: 24 “What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are–the Holy One of God!”

Mark 1:34
And Jesus healed many who were ill with various diseases and drove out many demons. But He would not allow the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.

Mark 5:7
And he shouted in a loud voice, “What do You want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God not to torture me.” 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Luke 4:33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon. He cried out in a loud voice,“Ha! What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are, the Holy One of God!”

Luke 4:41 Demons also came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God.” But He rebuked the demons and would not allow them to speak, because they knew He was the Christ.

Acts 16:16 Now it happened of us going to the place of prayer, a certain girl, having a spirit of Python, met us, who was bringing her masters much gain by fortune-telling. 17 Having followed Paul and us, she was crying out, saying, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” 18 And she continued this for many days. And Paul having been distressed and having turned, said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out from her.” And it came out that hour.

Acts 19:15
Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but you, who are you?”

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The Myth of Penal Substitution
#996

You should read Jonathan Mitchell’s take on Jude, available here http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/index.html

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