The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How to confront horrible ideas and their believers

Theology
#1

I believe that many inconsistent Calvinists worship the same God as I and sincerely believe He is loving.

And I think it can be argued that no Calvinist can be entirely consistent: nobody can truly desire to overcome sin in his life while knowing that God predetermined all his or her evil deeds.

And since the difference between single and double predestination is ultimately insignificant, this is the case for every Calvinist or Lutheran.

But people who really attempt to be consistent, like John Piper and McArthur (let alone Fred Phelps) inevitably turn God into an moral monster far worse than Staline.
I know many French and German racists who are almost infinitely more moral than the god of Calvinism.

Nearly consistent Calvinists adore an evil demon they call God.

That said I think it is important to always first and foremost see another person as a being created in the likeness of God.
I think it is important to withstand the temptation to become self-righteous and disagreeable.
When speaking with a Calvinist, I will first try to build a friendly relationship and avoid expressions which could uselessly hurt him or her.
I think it is important for her well-being that she gives up her Calvinist belief, but never at the expense of forgetting her humanity.

This is to my mind the main problem of many hardcore fundamentalists and of the New Atheists: while trying to win people for their ideas, they utterly forget love and spurn the most basic rules of human decency.
If we (both Arminian annihilationists and Universalists) act in the same way towards Calvinists, we are no better than hateful antitheists.

The only situation where I think it is permissible and just to use harsh words is when the individual repeatedly uses a hateful rhetoric, ridicule and mockery. It might be in order to confront him using a hard language, as our Lord Himself did with hateful pharisees.

#2

Awhile ago, I posted something I think is relevant to this:

Original post here: Our attitude towards those who don't believe ...

From a universalist perspective, we know God is going to make it all right in the end, teach everyone the truth, open blind eyes and soften hard hearts. This makes it possible to be gracious to our brothers and sisters who have not yet come to understand the grace and love of our God.

There may be times to correct people, even times when harsh words are in order – but ultimately I think we need to have the humility to realise that judgment is God’s, not ours, and we must be careful not to overstep.

Paul writes: (Rom 14:4) “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

And even angels are careful not to be presumptuous: (Jude 1:9) But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

Sonia

#3

I entirely agree that God is not going to damn or annihilate someone just because she held false beliefs about Him or even salvation.

#4

Well, if you have to be a Calvinist, the least you can do is be inconsistent. :laughing: I have several inconsistent Calvinist friends. They’re kind people who work hard, help the poor, and never have a harsh word for anyone. Talk about inconsistent! If they weren’t so inconsistent I doubt I could bear them, but as it is they’re wonderful brothers and sisters. Father will eventually, in His time, bring them through this so that their intellects match their hearts, which are good.

#5

Was Calvin Himself a consistent Calvinist? :unamused:

There is certainly a lot of inconsistency in the way various people view him:

JOHN CALVIN ADORED AND ABHORRED
(quotes taken from issue 12 of Christian History Magazine)

“He (Calvin) the most Christian man of his age.”
—Ernst Renan, French Historian

“If Calvin ever wrote anything in favor of religious liberty, it was a typographical error.”
— Roland Bainton, Yale Church Historian

“Calvin was one of those strong and consistent men of history who people either liked or disliked, adored or abhorred.”
— Lewis W. Spitz, Lutheran Historian

[Calvin] “belonged to the ranks of the greatest haters in history.”
— Erich Fromm, Author

“To omit Calvin from the forces of Western evolution is to read history with one eye shut.”
— Lord John Morley English Scholar

[Calvin was] the “cruel” and “the unopposed dictator of Geneva.”
— Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church

“ . . . Calvin made such a mark upon his age and, even beyond it, exercised an influence which does not yet seem likely to decline. Even more than a thinker, . . . he was a leader of men.“
— Francols Wendel, Historian

“Calvin has, I believe, caused untold millions of souls to be damned . . .”
— Jimmy Swaggart, Preacher

“Taking into account all his failings, he [Calvin] must be reckoned as one of the greatest and best of men whom God raised up in the history of Christianity.”
— Philip Schaff, Historian

“Better with Beza in hell than with Calvin in heaven!”
— A saying coined by Calvin’s enemies in Geneva

“Calvin is the man who, next to St. Paul, has done most good to mankind.”
— William Cunningham, Scottish Theologian

“The famous Calvin, whom we regard as the Apostle of Geneva, raised himself up to the rank of Pope of the Protestants.”
— Voltaire, French Enlightenment Philosopher

#6

^^Yeah. He did make pretty cool jeans though.

#7

Jean made jeans? :laughing:

#8

Or Calvin made Calvins. Works both ways :laughing: .

#9

Anyway you apparently got my message, this is what truly matters :slight_smile: