The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

Practices Christian Living
#3545

Bob, I think I “know” you quite well from the language you use and the manner in which you present your opinions. You are obviously caring, compassionate and disingenuous - that’s enough buttering up before I write what I have to say! No, I sincerely mean what I wrote about your character but, and here’s the qualifier ……

Your phraseology seems to me to be a bit ‘over the top’. Name calling? Endless rightwing posts? Ridiculing leftist nutballs? I realise I have only been a contributor here for two years but I don’t believe I have read any comments that would reflect what you allege. On another forum perhaps?

If I have been guilty of unethical commentary addressed to you, please forgive me.

#3546

The Rhetoric used here is very much what Bob says. That said, the rhetoric isn’t probably directed at Bob perse, but it is used. Dave is passionate about politics, and I think sometimes his rhetoric comes off as aggressive. But, there are also instigators in this thread, too. I won’t mention their names, but they drop in and seem to purposely egg Dave and some of the other conservatives on. For the record, I am not talking about Bob. Bob is pretty reasonable in my book.

In any event, I am fairly convinced that this thread is an echo-chamber for all of us. Call it blowing off steam, sharing an opinion that probably no one else cares about, etc… But, that has a place, and a good place. Maybe, just maybe, I feel like someone special being able to drop my perception on things in this thread, never-mind the fact that I know it is just a fantasy.

None of us is going to change A) the System and B) each others minds. I mean, not with blunt force rhetoric. We might change mind over time, based on someone’s opinion, but it wouldn’t be overnight, it would be very, very gradual.

Where I am now didn’t take one giant leap… It was a million of small concessions. Now I find myself pretty close to center-center and distrustful of both the left and the right, as a whole. But I recognize that in… I dunno, maybe 5 years I may be someone else entirely. Who knows.

At the end of the day, I feel Dave and Bob would have my back if I really needed help. That is all the matters, I think, in the end.

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#3547

I believe you, and I suppose beauty is often in the eye of the beholder. I suspect our opposing perceptions of political discourse here reveals that we occupy quite different vantage points.

As I’ve said, those who’ve offered serious critiques of the present U.S. administration (most of whom now avoid it), may observe these threads have often ridiculed ‘far Leftist’ extremists, and emphasized such disdain in response to those condemned for not expressing enough praise for president Trump.

#3548

Really all I can say is - don’t read me. That’s fine with me. You know what to expect, just as I know what to expect from each of you. I’m only doing this thread in this manner because this is a critical part of the forum and I hate ‘fog’ - put your ideas in the open air, on the table; disagree with the facts if you’ve done your homework, but don’t try to BS with more cultured phraseology that serves to mask snide and deep cuts that are just as devastating as my ‘aggressiveness’. You know who you are.
‘25’ reasons - each one was true, we see each one all the time. I was very clear that I do not lump all liberals with all Far Left people; also clear that I am not affiliated with the conservative ‘movement’ or the Republican bow-tie and silk-stocking group. OK?
I do detest what the far left is doing. I will continue to speak out about it. Don’t read it if you don’t like it - it’s not going to change. I will dig for facts and will point out lies. God bless America. And all of us as well.

#3549

Bob responds back!

Get your scorecard, folks! On sale here! You can’t tell the “left” from the “right”, without a scorecard. :crazy_face:

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And see what’s happening in the BBC news - free of charge! :crazy_face:


Let’s see the BBC score, folks! :crazy_face:

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#3550

" Tapper: And you’ve also said that what you’ve seen is, “far more serious than what Nixon did.” Explain to me how you have not come to the conclusion that the president should be impeached? I mean, it sounds like you think he should be impeached.

Schiff: Well, I certainly think that the evidence that’s been produced overwhelmingly shows serious misconduct by the president. But I do want to hear more from my constituents, and I want to hear more from my colleagues. This is not a decision I will be making alone.

Yeah. He’s not going to make the decision alone.

Just to make sure you got this clear: The man in charge of impeachment in the House, the member you just watched for two full weeks shepherding the impeachment hearings – the guy who cried on television just thinking about how much Donald Trump needed to be impeached right now – that guy isn’t really sure he’s for impeachment.

CLICK HERE TO GET THE FOX NEWS APP

You know, he needs to talk to his colleagues. He needs to hear more from his constituents. It’s a lot to think about. He’s going to prayerfully consider it over the holiday weekend, just alone. Just in some reflection. That’s Adam Schiff’s position now.

In other words, it’s over. Democrats lost." - Tucker

#3551

'What does populism threaten? It is a threat to a leftist internationalism that rejects national borders and denies to nations the right to preserve their cultures, the right to stop illegal immigration, and the right to select those immigrants who are most likely to prove to be a net asset to the host country, and most likely to assimilate. ’ - BV

#3552

I didn’t take Gabe’s perception to Norm that there the ‘left’ does get detested here, or that your political passion “sometimes comes off as aggressive” as intending to “cut” you. I think his honest perception is that many of us passionately “blow off steam” and that we on both sides tend to egg each other on.

I personally resonate with his impression that this often becomes an echo-chamber, and that we need to generously recognize that changes in partisan identities only happens at best gradually, and then not with blunt force.

#3553

I’m sympathetic with Dave as the political left wants to destroy everything traditional like their current target is Thanksgiving. The usual reasons such as Thanksgiving means celebrating white males suppressing indigeneous peoples or Europeans colonizing brown and black people etc. The same portrayal of almost any holiday or occasion as oppression and although there may be a sliver of truth in these things there is also the immense good that America has given the world which is omitted by design. Unfortunately the “left” controls the schools,university and the media.
So is Dave to aggressive? Maybe but that’s not really the point, the point is his content.

#3554

The whole point of Gabe’s response to Norm was not content, but our discussion of the kinds of rhetoric in dialogue with those who offer critiques of the president. I’ve seen no one here question that an element on the left is deeply destructive. That content is not even disputed.

#3555

Bob and others may not see it, so may not agree, but it is very clear to me that at this point in time, America the beautiful is just realizing it has been under sustained and severe attack for quite a while, and it is at a head right now.
I’m going to keep fighting for the American way - warts and all. Overall there is no doubt that America has been the greatest blessing to humanity - warts and all - and to lose it to ideologues who will stop at almost nothing - certainly ‘truth’ is offensive to them, and morality is only a tool - to destroy it, is not a foregone matter. We can do something. It’s time to shout. “The bridge ahead is washed out - stop stop stop.”
Aggressiveness is in the eye of the beholder. Cancer needs to be attacked.
I don’t want it to be this way. I would rather speak in wise tones of comfort and comraderie, and I try to do that in other threads. But here we are talking about keeping enough freedom that we ARE able to speak in wise and comforting tones elsewhere.
We can sleep in our dogmatic slumbers because rough-speaking people are waging the war for us.
Is there any doubt that the ‘25 things’ I posted above are a clear and present danger to civilization, not just USA? And they are happening NOW.

#3556

We need a song, about beautiful America. :crazy_face:

1 Like
#3557

I respect your choice to place passionate hope in a “rough-speaking” war about Caesar’s realm.

I think Gabe and my point is only that “rough speaking” may not be effective with brethren on the forum, and just fosters egging each other on within an echo chamber (or else I would say eventually fosters a one-sided dialogue as those who don’t share your partisan preferences or style of attack depart).

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#3558

I wonder if this, is how Dave responds? :crazy_face:

#3559

I really like that song “America the Beautiful.” I think it should be the National Anthem of the U.S.A. instead of their present song about how proud U.S. citizens are of their flag.

#3560

I think many of our citizens resonate with Katherine Lee Bates’ lovely lyrics.

#3561

This is the nature of a cultural world. The culture you grew up with isn’t the same desired culture that Gen X or 2Ks share. Since they will be the ones responsible, it seems fitting to let them find their way. You are nearing the last third of your life, and it is time to pass the torch on. Enjoy the rest of your life that God has given you, and let the young engage in politics. Just like my father, if politics causes unrest in your soul, why not step away from it? I hate to see my father constantly upset by this nation. You two would get along quite well and just so you don’t think that is an insult, you can know that I have a super strong relationship with my dad. No disrespect intended to him or you.

#3562

Wise advice but Dave looks at America the beautiful as more then a culture , it’s like a precious jewel a one of a kind stone getting tarnished and abused so i don’t think he can step away anytime soon.

#3563

Sorry, that does not seem like a wise course to me, nor wise advice. One of the advantages to being in the last 1/3 - to be more accurate1/6 - of life is that certain things, lost to the young, very important things, stand out as solid, imposing, and necessary to human flourishing.
There is no use passing on a torch that has gone out. It needs to keep burning.
I will stick with my current course, hoping that in this very small way I can contribute to conserving the best that mankind has to offer.
You are young, I guess, from what you’ve said. The young do not see everything; not like the old who have kept their eyes open far longer. That is no disrespect to you, just a fact of life.

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#3564

Whoa! I can’t buy that at all.

It seems more fitting that since they will be the ones responsible, they shouldn’t just find their way. Instead of potentially fumbling through decision making as “finding their way” suggests, they should listen to whatever sources can give them a more accurate picture of reality than just paying attention to what they now know. Generations older than they are can certainly help them with a sense of history that they likely would lack if they just interacted with their own generations.

The expression “the blind leading the blind” unfortunately denotes a real problem.

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