The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

Practices Christian Living
#4613

Since Romans tells us that God has given some of His authority to the Governing officials to carry out God’s will I believe the Government should intervene to love and protect. We see this with social security, police officers, the military, firemen, etc. We need social programs. It’s a balance with capitalism and socialism. Complete capitalism is called Laissez Fair. It’s no intervention by government. It’s Darwinism’s survival of the fittest. It’s the God of nature and reason. The revealed religions believe in intervention (miracles love) that transcend and go beyond natural law. It’s faith beyond reason. The paradox is that we must embrace both faith and reason. But faith goes beyond reason. I just found out that some of the early revolutionaries were Deists but they based the early principles of America on Biblical principles. The Deist God was the God of nature but the idea of Nature’s God was taken from the Roman concepts. We see this in Romans in the Bible:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Romans 1:18-20

Many people have wondered why God has created things like the shark or the lion. Indeed, why all those millions of years of death decay and suffering as animals devour each other? No one can fathom all of God’s justifiable reasons for doing what He does. Many things remain a mystery and we must trust Him. On another level though we learn something of the Creator through what He has created as the above Romans passage tells us. It may not make us feel good but nature tells us that God can be wrathful. This is what His power includes. People say they don’t believe God is like that. But on what basis? Is it because nature is always so gentle and kind that the God who created nature couldn’t have said and done all those wrathful things in the Bible? One thing is certain. Both nature and the Bible agree. If you are to believe what is true and not just what you wish to be true, then you must swallow the hard pill that the True God is just not who you want Him to be. You may hate the wrath of God but you cannot say it is illogical. What is illogical is to believe that God would never harm a flea when fleas are being harmed all around us. Even the terrors of nature testify that God exists. We must marvel at the lion even while fearing it.

#4614

After the Democrats’ Russia, Kavanaugh, Mueller, and Ukraine fiascos, the Iowa caucus debacle, and Friday’s bizarre Democratic debate, I think we need to update it: It’s a Criminal, Insane Posse masquerading as a political party. - https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/02/the_democrats_a_corrupt_insane_posse_masquerading_as_a_political_party.html

And of course, I except from the above harsh judgment anyone who is here and Democrat. That should go without saying.

#4615

If they declared Obama care unconstitutional then Bernie’s plan will by far be declared unconstitutional. Obama Care was declared unconstitutional because there was too much government involvement with the people. This pales in comparison to Bernies social programs. Not saying they are bad. Even some of those that wrote up the Social Security act claimed it was unconstitutional. They thought it went against small government. Here’s what I’m talking about:

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#4616

Just found out that health care and Social Security is a human right (entitled to)

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights recognises the right to social security in articles 22, which states that:

“Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.”[2]

And article 25, which enshrines the right to an adequate standard of living, stating that:

“(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.”[3]

#4617

The thing with ‘rights’ is - if the government GIVES you a ‘right’, the gov’t can TAKE the right.

If as the constitution states, certain rights are given by God - they cannot be taken away constitutionally.

#4618

Dave,

That’s if you break the law or get put in jail though. They don’t just take your human rights away for no reason do they? You can’t take a human right can you? The dignity of man is inherent.

#4619

They CAN - the rights given us by the government, given by congressional action, can certainly taken away by congressional action (Always in ‘our best interest’ of course)… We here in America recognize some basic human rights - known as 'inalienable rights" as given by God - the rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Those are in fact under attack in different ways.
We ‘recognize’ those rights, we don’t ‘grant’ them. That difference is paramount.

#4620

So, do you believe Social Security is unconstitutional then? They are not constitutional rights? I know Trump says they are a privileges to be earned. I’ve qualified and earned those rights. Can they be taken away for no reason?

#4621

It is constitutional for congress to respond to the needs of the citizens, of course. I was focused on ‘rights’, which is rather loosely thrown around in various places - the ‘right’ to an education? Why? Education is a very good thing normally - unlike the propagandizing that is now being passed off as education - but calling it a ‘right’ is I think misplaced. Constitutional, sure, we pass laws and entitlements all the time, but they are in the form of laws, budgets etc that are not strictly ‘rights’, but are entitlements such as SS - which we pay into and are entitled to. No one is entitled to a good job - the opportunity is there, but a person has to work and be of value; it can’t be promised. But we do have the ‘right’ to pursue our life and freedom and to seek happiness, and government should acknowledge those God given rights for all of us equally.

And yes: since ‘they’ gave it, they can take away SS. In effect they have for the past 20 years; dipped into OUR money and spent it on THEIR projects.

#4622

Would you agree that the foundations of the constitution are based on reason? SS hasn’t always been there. It’s recent. Why isn’t SS God given rights? Jesus commands it.

Here’s reasons why you would lose SS. I have the understanding that they don’t just take them away for no reason:

In most cases, claimants will receive their disability award for many wonderful years. Once they’ve finally received their disability, the last thing anyone wants to experience is having their benefits stop. Yet, there are certain reasons why payments may cease and be taken away due to policy. Of course, SSD and SSI are very different, but it’s important to know what can cause your Social Security Disability to be terminated. The following are the top 7 reasons why one may lose their benefits and which category of benefits it falls under.

surprise people

1) Medical Improvement (SSI & SSD)

If the medical or psychiatric condition(s) that make you disabled improve, the SSA could find that you are no longer disabled, making your benefit payments stop. This applies the same in both SSD and SSI claims.

Briefly, the SSA periodically reviews the case of all beneficiaries (usually in 3 or 7 year increments) to determine if they are still disabled. These “continuing disability reviews” are generally less strict than the standards used when applying for disability, and most disability beneficiaries continue to receive benefits after their review.

2) Returning to Work (SSI & SSD)

If you return to work while receiving SSD benefits, the SSA will determine if you are engaging in “substantial gainful activity” (SGA). The biggest factor in determining if work qualifies as SGA is the amount a person is paid. In 2015, someone is generally considered to be engaging in SGA if he or she earns more than $1,090 ($1,820 for blind individuals.) However, this isn’t a cut and dry issue. It is possible for the SSA to determine that your job duties constitute SGA even if you are earning less than this amount.

SSI benefits will stop if the recipient returns to work and engages in SGA. However, trial work periods are not available under the SSI program. SSI does have a Ticket to Work Program and a “Plan for Achieving Self-Support, however.

3) Reaching Retirement Age (SSD)

Social Security disability beneficiaries who reach full retirement age will see their disability benefits stop, since you cannot receive both Social Security disability benefits and Social Security retirement benefits at the same time.will instead receive payments under the Social Security retirement benefits program.

4) Being Incarcerated or Institutionalized (SSD)

If you are confined to a prison or other penal institution after being convicted of a crime, your disability benefits will stop for the period of time you are incarcerated. In addition, sometimes a felony conviction will lead to a cessation of benefits as well.

5) Going about the Income or Asset Limits (SSI)

If you are receiving SSI and, for any reason, your income or assets rise above the limit for SSI eligibility, your benefits will stop. In 2015, the individual income limit for SSI is $733 per month, and the asset limit is $2,000. While SSI recipients should be aware of these limits, determining whether you are over the income limit can be a complex issue due to a number of factors. Some factors include, but are not limited to, an increase in income, free food or shelter, increase in assets, spousal income, and/or parental income.

6) Turning 18 (SSI)

Children who are receiving SSI will have their condition reevaluated according to the adult SSI standards when they turn 18, and depending on the SSA’s finding, this could cause their benefits to stop.

7) Changes in Living Situation (SSI)

If you enter or leave an institution such as a nursing home or halfway house, this will affect your eligibility. In addition, if you leave the U.S. for 30 days or more, your SSI benefits will stop.

happy couple

There are two easy ways to avoid these pitfalls and find out if you are still eligible for your benefits:

a) Stay in contact with your local SSA and keep them up to date.

b) Contact Muse Disability Services for further assistance.

#4623

The Democrats are fighting among themselves. :crazy_face:

#4624

Found this on Wikipedia on the history of Social Security Act:

Opponents also decried the proposal as socialism.[7][8][9] In a Senate Finance Committee hearing, one Senator asked Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins, “Isn’t this socialism?” She said that it was not, but he continued, “Isn’t this a teeny-weeny bit of socialism?”[10]

Two Supreme Court rulings affirmed the constitutionality of the Social Security Act.

  • Steward Machine Company v. Davis , 301 U.S, 548[28] (1937) held, in a 5–4 decision, that, given the exigencies of the Great Depression, “[It] is too late today for the argument to be heard with tolerance that in a crisis so extreme the use of the moneys of the nation to relieve the unemployed and their dependents is a use for any purpose narrower than the promotion of the general welfare”. The arguments opposed to the Social Security Act (articulated by justices Butler, McReynolds, and Sutherland in their opinions) were that the social security act went beyond the powers that were granted to the federal government in the Constitution. They argued that, by imposing a tax on employers that could be avoided only by contributing to a state unemployment-compensation fund, the federal government was essentially forcing each state to establish an unemployment-compensation fund that would meet its criteria, and that the federal government had no power to enact such a program.
  • Helvering v. Davis , 301 U.S. 619 (1937), decided on the same day as Steward , upheld the program because “The proceeds of both [employee and employer] taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like internal-revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way”. That is, the Social Security Tax was constitutional as a mere exercise of Congress’s general taxation powers.
#4625

I don’t think SS could be stopped just on a whim of the government. There would be ‘reasons’ given, but their reasons are seldom ‘our’ reasons, unfortunately. But then again I am known to be cynical about ‘government’. I don’t see ‘them’ as acting for us so much as for their political futures.

As for God-given rights to ‘benefits’ - I would say that we in America have a ‘social contract’ - our Constitution - which is the best the world has ever seen. But I don’t understand it to be God-given: it was devised by men of great learning and good will, but it is not revelation, if you get what I’m saying. WE give and accept the benefits through our government, whom we supposedly elect. I say ‘supposedly’ because to a very great extent, our lives are controlled by bureaucrats who are not elected; they are appointed, and they have jobs they need to protect. They are also open to coercion, bribery, self-interest etc., and though they are not elected, they have the power to pass regulations that bind us just as tightly as congressional law, and infact those regulations are more oppressive overall, and more damaging to our life liberty and pursuit of happiness than most of the laws passed by Congress.
I’ve just finished reading Roger Scruton’s " Fools, Frauds and Firebrands" a demolition of socialist intellectuals.It is an eye-opener on just how intellectuals have brought about the deconstruction of most of what we all call ‘good’, with the aim of making us - and the world - into an ‘administrative’ state - socialism or even worse - centered in a few fabulously powerful and rich elite; more to the point, they believe that society, culture, even Law is no more than illusory. Just appearance. They alone see the ‘truth’ and are hell-bent (literally?) on corrupting society and remaking it into their vision; which has never worked,but they are still at it. I could easily see them demolishing SS, destroying history in textbooks and much much more. If we love freedom to pursue our happiness, they must be stopped. Thus endeth the rant.

#4626

Dave,

The SS Act was constitutional because the Great Depression forced us to act in the common welfare of the people. It was rejected by some people as being socialism though. But we have all kinds of socialist programs in the US. The way SS Act was constitutional was because of the common welfare clause in the Constitution. The “general welfare clause” of the United States Constitution is found in Article I Section 8 , which begins:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States

This is where the Green New Deal comes in. If things are as bad as scientists say and the economy boom is only benefitting the top one percent the we have a crisis. If there is a crisis like the Great Depression then the common welfare clause will allow the social programs of Sanders to be put into place. Perhaps with modification. Sanders is a social democracy. It’ has Capitalism at its core with social programs. It’s not pure capitalism no. But it is socialism and capitalism.

#4627

This is a good analysis by Victor Davis Hanson; link below.
Snippet:
So, we are now back to the existential issue of the entire Trump phenomenon: to what degree did the Hillary Clinton campaign collude with high-ranking Obama officials, and the top echelons of the FBI, CIA, and the national intelligence apparatus, to surveil, defame, and hope to derail Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign by unlawful means?

Who in the federal government then continued Clinton’s efforts after the 2016 election to disrupt and indeed attempt to destroy the Trump transition and presidency?

Eventually, someone will sort out whether that post-election effort on the part of federal officials to abort the Trump presidency, abetted by the media and #TheResistance, was a simple follow-up to the Clinton-DNC-Perkins Coe-Fusion GPS collusion against candidate Trump—or a sick preemptive attempt of the administrative state to smear Trump as a “Russian asset” because of their worries about the exposure of their own prior criminality and Trump’s iconoclastic agenda.

https://amgreatness.com/2020/02/09/the-once-and-future-scandal/

#4628

In order to bring folks REAL news, on this thread - I present this! :crazy_face:

And let’s look at a non-BBC article :crazy_face:

#4629

The sense that I belong and sense that I count comes from being a child of God. It’s faith that unites me to Christ. My value and worth is found in Him. Because of this I can do all things through Christ wo strengthens me. I don’t try to prove or earn my worth. My good works are an expression of my worth. Value motivates like Bob has said. It’s not the only thing that motivates.

#4630

I don’t think the hierarchy in reality is with humans. Different types of being have different value, yes. But humans are of equal value because we are created in God’s image. We all have rights as human beings. Being valuable is a motivator for hard work. We don’t earn our worth but it is intrinsic because we are in God’s image. People who have money in the bank work harder than a lot. You don’t motivate by taking away rights. Being entitled doesn’t make you lazy. Look at all the wealthy people wo work hard who have a sense of value, meaning, and purpose. Do we not say they are entitled? We deserve health because of our innate dignity.

1 Like
#4631

China again? :crazy_face:

#4632

Trump’s trying to make America into an Evangelical Christian Theocracy like we use to be when it was “One Nation Under God”. It violates the constitution. But Jesus violated natural law as well in the name of miracle love. It’s faith beyond reason. We need faith and reason but faith goes beyond reason. Abraham Lincoln was the first President to use the phrase, “This nation under God.”. It inspired President Eisenhower, in 1954, to add the words “one nation under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance. Trump wants America to be a Christian Nation. This is a main reason why they are fighting in Politics. When America was a Christian Theocracy (“one nation under God”), it was the most prosperous and admired nation in history.