The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

Practices Christian Living
#2001

I guess we differ a bit there in our take on things. I suggest that:

  1. There will always be an abundance of guns. As there should be
  2. Given that, taking away a means of defense from good citizens does nothing to affect the crime rate. In fact, armed citizenry is a deterrent.
  3. It is well known that criminals want to know which households have guns, so they can stay away

Maybe keep in mind that 60 million abortions figure - should we BAN ABORTIONS???.

I might add that there WILL always be an abundance of guns. No government program can stop that, nor should they. So any idea of a gun-free society is unconstitutional, naive, and illogical.
Am I wrong in that? Does anyone believe that taking guns from good citizens is right in any way, or that guns can be eradicated to the extent that they would not be available cheaply on the black market from Mexico or south America, from cartels, from any number of sources?

#2002

Dave B replying to qaz.

And what would happen, if the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) occurred tomorrow
and we had no guns, to defend ourselves?

#2003

That should end the debate right there!!! :slight_smile:

#2005

I see your point, but the mass shootings add a very little to the total amount of shootings. And, a defenseless citizenry would surely be victimized even more by bad actors, way offsetting the net gain.
Of course, it’s horrible to even think of ‘net gain’ when it comes to human lives.

How about we help restore the dignity and worth of all life by ending senseless murder of innocent lives by abortion - that would send a great message. And stop glorifying Hollywood’s extreme violence and sexual conquest as a model for young men? And stop the hours-long marathons of extreme video gaming? I mean, what are we teaching people with those things - mass abortion, Hollywood, violent ‘games’ that immerse people in that stuff?
And the fatherless one-parent homes, where the men are sending a message as well, that is being perpetuated?

If those things are not addressed, removing half the guns is going to do nothing. $.02

Of all the causes of death listed here below, abortion is not one of them. Why?

I don’t want to sound too crazy (yeah yeah, too late :-)) but could those 60 million deaths possible result in judgment on America?

#2006

[quote=“DaveB, post:1999, topic:6062, full:true”]

ALL of us, Bob? :slight_smile:

Yes, I observe that tendency. Who is it that you think especially does not tend to like statistical facts when they support their beliefs?

I’m not seeing how the stats you offer challenge any of my observations. Could you just say what you mean, and spell it out?

(My impression is that you imply that differing approaches to reducing homicides mustn’t be compared, because American culture is inferior to each of the other affluent nations, and thus can’t learn anything relevant from these more liberal societies’ approaches?)

#2007

I was totally agreeing to your comment on statistical facts. I drew attention to ‘all’.
I don’t know that much about other cultures - obviously not as much as you. Nevertheless, I do know this one, and am willing to face the fact that it is sliding, fast, downhill. And guns have nothing to do with that, causally. Other factors have been listed, let him who has ears
etc.
I understand you, Bob, I just disagree it seems, on every point. But I give reasons.
We had the same dust-up when it came to the transgender issue.

That’s a catchy line. What don’t you understand?

In any case I’ll give you the last word, this particular argument has gone as far as I care to. People can read and make up their own minds.

#2008

Being fatherless has nothing to do with killing. Me and my brother were fatherless and we’ve never killed anybody. He has a bachelors in economics and Master’s in Business. I’ve been diagnosed schizoaffective (bipolar type). I don’t have it in my heart to commit a mass shooting. Many with mental disorders aren’t violent. Therey’s quite successful. Here’s a small list of famous people and/or rich celebrities with mental illness

Abbie Hoffman
bipolar disorder

Abraham Lincoln
severe clinical depression

Adam Ant (Stuart Goddard)
bipolar

Adam Rickett
bulimia nervosa

Alanis Morissette
clinical depression

Alastair Campbell
depression

Albert Einstein
dyslexia (speculated)

Alexander Graham Bell
dyslexia

Alfred Taubman
dyslexia

Ally Sheedy
bulimia nervosa; substance abuse

Alma Powell
clinical depression

Alonzo Spellman
bipolar disorder

Alvin Ailey
bipolar disorder (aka “manic depression”)

Amy Heckerling
eating disorders; obsessive-compulsive disorder

Angelina Jolie
depression and self harm

Anne Sexton
clinical depression

Ann-Margret
clinical depression; alcoholism

Art Buchwald
bipolar disorder

Audrey Hepburn
clinical depression; eating disorders

Axl Rose
bipolar disorder

Barbara Niven
bulimia nervosa

Barbra Streisand
social phobia

Ben Moody
depression

Ben Stiller
bipolar disorder

Ben Vereen
clinical depression

Benjamin Disraeli
clinical depression

Bert Yancey
bipolar disorder

Bill Lichtenstein
bipolar disorder

Bill Oddie
bipolar

Billy Joel
alcohol and depression

Billy Joel
clinical depression

Boris Yeltsin
clinical depression

Brian Wilson
bipolar disorder

Britney Spears
bipolar and post natal depression

Brooke Shields
postpartum depression

Burgess Meredith
bipolar disorder

Buzz Aldrin
clinical depression

Calvin Coolidge
clinical depression (speculated)

Carly Simon
social phobia

Carmen Miranda
clinical depression

Caroline Aherne
major depressive disorder

Carrie Fisher
bipolar disorder, substance abuse;

Cary Grant
clinical depression

catherine zeta jones
bipolar II

Charles “Buddy” Bolden
schizophrenia

Charles Darwin
severe panic disorder

Charles Dickens
clinical depression; bipolar disorder (suspected)

Charles Faust
schizophrenia

Charles Schulz
clinical depression

Charles Schwab
dyslexia

Charley Pell
clinical depression

Charley Pride
bipolar disorder; alcoholism

Clara Bow
clinical depression

Cole Porter
clinical depression; alcoholism; paranoid delusions; obsessive-compulsive disorder (speculated)

Connie Francis
clinical depression

Courtney Love
drub abuse, clinical depression

Craig Ferguson
alcoholic

Craig McCaw
dyslexia

Dame Kelly Holmes
depression and self harm

Damon Wayans
clinical depression

Daniel Johns
clinical depression; anxiety disorder;eating disorder

Danny Glover
learning disability

Darryl Strawberry
clinical depression

David Boies
dyslexia

David Bowie
crying but not diagnosed but lots of family mental health issues

David Murdock
dyslexia

Delta Burke
depression and compulsive hoarding

Denise Welch
nervous breakdown

Diane Arbus
clinical depression

Dick Cavett
depression – found electro shock therapy helpful

Dick Clark
clinical depression

Dimitrius Underwood
bipolar disorder

DMX
bipolar

Dolly Parton
clinical depression

Donny Osmond
clinical depression; social phobia

Dorothy Day
clinical depression

Doug Ferrari
borderline personality disorder

Doug Flutie, Jr.
autism

Drew Barrymore
clinical depression; alcoholism, substance abuse;

Drew Carey
clinical depression

Dwight Gooden
clinical depression

Earl Campbell
panic disorder

Edgar Allan Poe
clinical depression (speculated); alcoholism

Edward McVaney
dyslexia

Elizabeth Hartman
clinical depression (speculated)

Elton John
substance abuse and bulimia

Emily Carr
various speculations, neurasthenia; hypochondriasis; clinical depression; conversion disorder; schizophrenia:

Emma Thompson
clinical depression

Eric Clapton
clinical depression

Ernest Hemingway
clinical depression

Eugene O’Neill
clinical depression

F. Scott Fitzgerald
clinical depression

Fiona Phillips
depression

Frances Lear
bipolar disorder;, substance abuse

Francis Ford Coppola
bipolar disorder

Frank Bruno
bipolar

Frank Lloyd Wright
clinical depression

Gaetano Donizetti
bipolar disorder

Gail Porter
post natal depression

George Eliot (Marian Evans)
clinical depression

George Michael
depression and fear

George S. Patton
clinical depression; dyslexia

George Washington
learning disability

Georgia O’Keeffe
clinical depression

Graeme Obree
depression

Halle Berry
suicide attempt

Harrison Ford
clinical depression

Harry Andersen
learning disability

Hart Crane
clinical depression; alcoholism

Heath Ledger
depression, anxiety and sleep depravation

Henry Winkler
learning disability

Herb McCauley
bulimia nervosa

Hermann Hesse
clinical depression

Herschel Walker
dissociative identity disorder

Howard Hughes
OCD (clinical depression and psychosis both speculated

Howard Stern
obsessive-compulsive disorder

Howie Mandel
obsessive-compulsive disorder

Hugh Laurie
depression

Hunter Tylo
clinical depression

Irving Berlin
clinical depression

Isaac Newton
bipolar disorder (suspected)

J.P. Morgan
bipolar disorder

Jack Dee
depression

Jack Farrell
clinical depression

Jack Irons
bipolar disorder

Jack Kerouac
clinical depression, substance abuse, severe alcoholism;

Jackson Pollock
clinical depression; substance abuse

Jaco Pastorius
bipolar disorder; alcoholism; substance abuse

James Dean Bradfield
bipolar

James Forrestal
clinical depression

James Garner
clinical depression

James Taylor
clinical depression; bipolar disorder

Jane Fonda
bulimia nervosa

Jane Pauley
bipolar
Janet Jackson
clinical depression

Jean-Claude Van Damme
bipolar disorder

Jessica Alba
OCD and eating disorder

Jessica Lange
clinical depression

Jim Carrey
clinical depression

Jimmy Piersall
bipolar disorder

Joan Rivers
clinical depression; bulimia nervosa

Joey Kramer
clinical depression

Joey Slinger
clinical depression

John Chambers
dyslexia

John Daly
bipolar disorder; alcoholism, gambling addiction;

John Forbes Nash
schizophrenia (paranoid-type)

John Gibson
bipolar disorder

John Kenneth Galbraith
clinical depression

John Madden
specific phobia (flying)

John Mulheren
bipolar disorder

John Nash
schizophrenia

John Quincy Adams
clinical depression

Jose Canseco
clinical depression

Joshua Logan
bipolar disorder

Judy Garland
clinical depression;,substance abuse

Jules Feiffer
clinical depression

Julie Krone
post-traumatic stress disorder; clinical depression

Justine Bateman
eating disorders

Karen Carpenter
anorexia nervosa

Karen Kain
clinical depression

Kate Millett
bipolar disorder

Katie Price/Jordan
post natal depression

Keisha Buchanan
depression

Kendall Gill
clinical depression

Kim Basinger
panic disorder

Kitty Dukakis
bipolar disorder, alcoholism; substance abuse;

Kris Kristopherson
clinical depression; substance abuse

Kristy McNichol
bipolar disorder

Kurt Cobain
attention deficit disorder and bipolar depression

Kurt Vonnegut
clinical depression/bipolar

Kylie Minogue
depression

Larry Flynt
bipolar disorder

Larry King
clinical depression

Lawton Chiles
clinical depression

Lenny Henry
depression

Leo Tolstoy
clinical depression; hypochondriasis; alcoholism; substance abuse

Leonard Bernstein
clinical depression

Leonard Cohen
clinical depression

Lewis Preston
dyslexia

Linda Hamilton
bipolar disorder

Lionel Aldridge
schizophrenia (paranoid-type)

Lord Bragg
depression

Ludwig van Beethoven
bipolar disorder

Macy Gray
bipolar

Marc Summers
obsessive-compulsive disorder

Margaret Trudeau Kemper
bipolar disorder

Margaux Hemingway
dyslexia; alcoholism; clinical depression (speculated)

Margot Kidder
manic depression (Bipolar) and paranoia

Marie Osmond
clinical depression, post-partum

Marilyn Monroe
clinical depression/suicide

Mark Rothko
clinical depression

Marsha Linehan
bpd

Meg Mathews
depression

Mel C:
depression

Mel Gibson
bipolar

Melinda Messenger
depression

Meriwether Lewis
clinical depression

Michael Phelps
attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)

Mike Tyson
depression and severe insecurities and anger

Mike Wallace
clinical depression

Morrissey (S.P.)
clinical depression

Murray Pezim
bipolar disorder

Natalie Cole
clinical depression

Ned Beatty
bipolar disorder

Neil Lennon
depression

Neil Simon
clinical depression

Nelson Rockefeller
dyslexia

Nicole Kidman
panic attacks on the red carpet

Norman Mailer
clinical depression

Ozzy Osbourne
bipolar

Pablo Picasso
clinical depression

Pat Lafontaine
clinical depression

Patricia Cornwell
bipolar disorder, anorexia nervosa, anorexia bulimia;;

Patrick Kennedy
clinical depression

Patsy Palmer
depression and panic attacks

Patty Duke
bipolar disorder

Paul Gascoigne
clinical depression

Paul Simon
clinical depression

Paula Abdul
bullimia nervosa

Paula Deen
Agoraphobia and panic attacks

Pete Harnisch
clinical depression

Peter Gabriel
clinical depression

Peter Greene
schizophrenia

Phil Spector
clinical depression/bipolar

Pierre PĂ©ladeau
bipolar disorder

Princess Diana
Bulimia nevosa, depression and multiple suicide attempts

Queen Victoria
clinical depression

Ray Charles
clinical depression

Richard Branson
dyslexia

Richard Dreyfuss
clinical depression/bipolar

Richard Simmons
anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa;

Richey James
clinical depression, anorexia nervosa;;alcoholism

Rick Springfield
clinical depression

Ricky Williams
social phobia

Robbie Williams
depression

Robert Boorstin
bipolar disorder

Robert Campeau
bipolar disorder

Robert Lowell
bipolar disorder

Robert McFarlane
clinical depression

Robert Munsch
bipolar disorder

Robert Young
clinical depression; alcoholism

Robin Williams
clinical depression, learning disability;

Rod Steiger
clinical depression

Rodney Dangerfield
clinical depression

Roseanne
dissociative identity disorder (aka “multiple personality disorder”); obsessive-compulsive disorder; clinical depression; agoraphobia

Rosemary Clooney
bipolar

Ruby Wax
depression

Russell Grant
depression

Sandra Dee
anorexia nervosa

Sarah Lancashire
depression

Sarah McLachlan
clinical depression

Scott Donie
clinical depression

Shayne Corson
panic attacks

Shecky Greene
bipolar disorder, with severe panic attacks

Sheryl Crow
clinical depression

Sigmund Freud
clinical depression

Sinead O’Connor
bipolar

Sir Anthony Hopkins
clinical depression

Sir Elton John
bulimia nervosa; substance abuse, alcoholism;

Sophie Anderton
drug addiction and depression

Spencer Tracy
clinical depression; alcoholism

Spike Milligan
bipolar disorder

Stephen Fry
bipolar depression

Steve Blass
social phobia

Steve Sax
social phobia

Sting (Gordon Sumner)
clinical depression

Susan Powter
clinical depression

Syd Barrett
schizophrenia

Sylvia Plath
clinical depression

Tammy Wynette
clinical depression, substance abuse;

Ted Turner
bipolar disorder

Tennessee Williams
clinical depression

Theodore Dreiser
clinical depression

Thomas Alva Edison
dyslexia

Thomas Eagleton
clinical depression

Tiberius
clinical depression (speculated)

Tipper Gore
clinical depression

Tom Cruise
dyslexia

Tony Slattery
bipolar

Tracey Gold
anorexia nervosa, attention deficit disorder;

Tracy Thompson
clinical depression

Trisha Goddard
depression

Tulisa’s mum
Tulisa’s mum had scizoaffective disorder

Uma Thurman
depression

Vaslav Nijinsky
schizophrenia

Veronica Lake
schizophrenia; alcoholism

Vincent Foster
clinical depression (speculated)

Vincent van Gogh
clinical depression; bipolar disorder (speculated)

Vivien Leigh
bipolar disorder after miscarriage

Walker Percy
clinical depression

Walt Disney
dyslexia

Whoopi Goldberg
dyslexia

William Hewlett
dyslexia

William Styron
clinical depression

Winona Ryder
clinical depression; anxiety

Winston Churchill
bipolar disorder; dyslexia

Woodrow Wilson
dyslexia

Yves Saint Laurent
clinical depression

#2009

Thanks Dave. I’m hearing your clarifying response here as a “yes” to my guess that your understanding is that American culture is especially deteriorating, and thus can’t learn from other nations’ approach to violence. I see no reason to believe that, and disagree that we are sliding worse that other affluent nations in whom I also see deterioration. I think we could become at least as healthy as they currently are.

Your comparison to discussions of how to treat those who imagine they are transgender is interesting, but I’m not seeing how that involves the same issues.

Though as I predicted before, our interpretations about the data of current events differs, the neat thing is that my interpretation of the Biblical material tends to be as affirming of yours as anyone else on the forum :slight_smile:

#2010

Well, sometimes I imagine I’m trans-zombie. Then I see a pretty woman and start singing - the right love song!

Nice sharing, Hollytree - on mental illness. I loved it!

And speaking of guns and zombies!

#2011

Dang I got sucked back in. I have no will power :slight_smile:
I did not say it was the same issue, Bob. The same dust-up yes.
Maybe these aren’t facts (below) but it is interesting that the enlightened Europeans are knocking children off at even a greater rate than we are.
The slaughter of the innocents is perhaps a rather big log in the world’s eye than almost anything else? Maybe, but the vast number of libs in this country would rather talk about guns - both important subjects.

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#2013

Mass shootings = hundreds or thousands a year? Nosiree. Since 1950 all mass shootings have happened in areas where it is against the law to carry a handgun, as far as I can tell. Unarmed citizens. If teachers were armed, if theaters had armed guards, almost all of these would have been stopped. If criminals have guns and noone else, we’re in a world of hurt.

#2014

Just look at this recent story, regarding the woman from Chicago:

#2016

I don’t see differing interpretations as a “dust-up,” but don’t you see that your observation totally supports my case that European culture is not superior to ours, and that blaming our inability to compete with their lower level of deadly shootings oughtn’t be blamed on some supposedly worse downhill slide of American culture?

#2017

qaz, where do you live and what circumstances do you deal with every day in life, are you or have you ever been put in a position where your life was either at stake or in trouble?

#2018

I call it a dust-up, Bob, but I think we mean the same thing - differing opinions stated forcefully. I’m fine with it myself. :slight_smile:
Yes I do get it about European culture, and thanks for the insight. Really.
And in fact I almost completely agree with the quote above.
We could quibble a bit about the word ‘supposedly’ but I see no point in that.
All in all, well done conversation on a very hot subject.

And yes we seem to align peacefully and imo wisely on the theological matter. Thank goodness :slight_smile:

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#2019

Qaz, this is about what I’ve been finding as to ‘mass shootings’. Still a sad number.

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And yes we seem to align peacefully and imo wisely on the theological matter. Thank goodness :slight_smile:

#2020

One major reason why most gun deaths don’t involve the mass shootings that encourage a sense of fearful vulnerability, is that most U.S. gun deaths do not involve bad guys or malicious shootings. They mostly involve those who found a sure fire way to expedite their death in a moment of despair, as well as family accidental shooting deaths and quarrels, etc. So I think one reason we lose more to these causes than affluent nations who also have depressed folk, etc, is that our belief that having guns everywhere makes us safer, also makes it awful handy to commit suicide in a quick moment.

#2022

Here you go Qaz, let us know if you find interesting stuff.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.32017aaa9051

#2024

Any murder victim is tragic, I totally agree.

There have been some notable European massacres of course.

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And about that 7x greater chance of getting murdered here, there are some distinctions to be made,
Check out the last paragraph, for instance: Just stuff to think about, I’m open to new info at any time so keep me posted.
A 2016 article by the American Journal of Medicine claims that homicide rates in the U.S. are 7 times higher than an average of other “high income countries.” This conclusion is based on a select list of OECD nations compiled in 2010. The lowest income nation on the list is Hungary, where per capita GDP is $28,000 per year. Turkey and Mexico did not make the cut because their per capita GDPs are respectively $25,000 and $19,000. Latvia and Estonia are not on this list, presumably because Latvia joined the OECD in 2016 and Estonia joined in December of 2010. Turkey, Estonia, and Latvia have murder rates comparable to those in the U.S. Mexico exceeds the U.S. by about 4 times. Most would agree that Mexico is not “high income” but the case for excluding these other three nations is not as clear cut.

If the list were to include all of Eastern Europe, Russian and Lithuania would surpass the U.S. in homicides per capita. Only when the U.S. is compared with affluent Western nations that were never under the iron curtain does its murder rate far exceed all other in the sample. The AJM attributes this grim statistic to high levels of gun ownership in the U.S., but the authors fail to point out that two of the safest nations in the world (Switzerland and Finland) rank 3rd and 4th in per capita gun ownership.

The U.S. has almost double the gun ownership rate of Finland and (according to a table in the AJM article) 12 times the gun homicide rate. Does this mean there is a “critical mass” for gun ownership where the murder rate increases exponentially? If this is true, why do heartland states with the highest levels of gun ownership have some of the lowest murder rates in the U.S.?

Read more: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/04/why_it_is_misleading_to_compare_the_us_murder_rate_with_that_of_western_europe.html#ixzz5cS2hTdUQ
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

#2025

From a practical stand point, I don’t want to own a gun. I have children and I would not want the risk of my children gaining access. I know there are safes, but kids are pretty clever. Anyhow, I also would never want to conceal or carry. I am human and prone to anger, just like everyone else. Who is to say that I might not rage over something and use it? Ok, so I doubt I ever would, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen.

However, if I lived in a very high crime rate area, I might own one. It really depends on the situation and risk/benefit ratio.

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