The Evangelical Universalist Forum

I sent a message to someone non-universalism!

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Then he Told me this, I didn’t know he was non-universalism, and suddenly strike happened: :smiley:

Christian Universalism is a big fat Satanic LIE!

Jesus talked about hell TEN times more than heaven.

FEW will find the narrow gate, MANY will find destruction.

Unless Jesus has come to a person they must think of themselves as evil. They must because compared to Jesus they are. The second they stop believing they’re evil (while begging internally for Jesus to give them the same Spirit and power He had) that is the moment satan takes over them with false humility, but sensuality becomes their master!

2 Cor 10:12 “We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise.”

WE are to compare our walk with what Jesus said not what others have experienced, unless what others have experienced can be shown in Gods word.

John 17:8 - “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am NOT praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.”

WHO says EVERYONE is saved? Not Jesus nor His words. EVIL people who never did this:

“If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”" Luke 11:13

I asked JESUS “when will they know they receive the Spirit?”

HE showed me a dream flipping my bible again to John 14:21 (third time he has done this for me this year.)

John 14:21 “Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

#2

I think by this dream he meant Bible has a mistranslation :smiley:

and I think he read KJV because of 31 times in OT, 23 in NT for the word “Hell”
but for example for HCSB 0 time in OT, 12 in NT :smiley: (I didn’t count these)

I think narrow gate is a way for the heaven (Healthy Life HERE on Earth, Not after death)

what? after death we are going to play piano in the clouds? :smiley:
and when Jesus died, Did he get punishment in hell (hades, beside the rich man) in those 3 days? (perceptive? I think for this one the Spirit told me)

#3

Hi Eric, was this a friend of yours? And if so, how close are you and do you think this is the begginning of a conversation with him or was he only declaring his judgment and not wanting any more discussion on it? Concerning what he replied, well…

  1. Jesus did not warn of Hell, but warned of being cast into Hinnom Valley, a ravine/valley SSW of Mt. Zion/Jerusalem, a place that spoke volumes to the Jew, judgment of God against Jerusalem for its evil.

  2. The promise of the narrow way is “Life”, the abundant Kingdom of God kinda life! And in it’s literary context (the sermon on the Mount in Mt.), the narrow way is talking about the convergence of Right Attitudes, Right Beliefs, and Right Actions. In the sermon on the Mount in Mt. Jesus teaches on having right attitudes, corrects some of the doctrine of the Pharisees, and shows how that their actions, though good actions, actually brought death and destruction because their attitudes were wrong. For example, they prayed, not to connect with God or bring heaven to earth but to be seen of people as righteous, to elivate themselves and to put down others. If our attitudes are right then God can work with us and correct our beliefs and actions. But if our attitudes are wrong, then we’re on the path that leads to destruction.

So right attitudes, right beliefs, and right actions are all important, and right attitudes is the most important! Beliefs are secondary and our actions are actually 3rd; they are the fruit of our attitudes and beliefs.

Concerning UR being a satanic lie, well, that’s where our beliefs differ. I believe infernalism is a satanic lie. One day the kingdom of darkness will be eclipsed by the light, Satan (assuming Satan is a person and not just a personification of evil) will be overcome, not by more evil, but by good, not by unforgiveness, but by forgiveness, not by hate but by love. Satan would have us believe that to his kingdom there is no end, to evil there is no end, that love fails to reconcile most, at least some of humanity.

Believing that love fails, that the kingdom of darkness goes on forever and ever, that the gospel is not really good news for most of humanity, or that God does not ultimately love all of creation, is a root of all kinds of fear, fear for ourselves and others. But God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and sound reasoning/judgment. Fear makes us feel helpless, paralyses us, fills us with hate, and causes us to be irrational. And infernalism sows fear in the hearts of everyone who embraces it, fear for one’s self and fear for others. But God does not give us a spirit of fear. Lies produce fear.

#4

Definitely right, the problem is, i don’t like to challenge with people who are insisting on their belief, thats why i stopped the conversation with him after this. and as you said interpreting the verses is challenging, which for this verse: John 17:8 - “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am NOT praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.”

I don’t think this proves the belief of infernalism.

#5

Eric - I think there is a distinction that someone other than me can make clearer between two different uses of ‘world’ in the NT. One means the world system of power and oppression frustration and sin that is passing away. The other world - the world God loves - means the world that is being set free and redeemed (and especially the people in it). But I’ a historian - not a proper biblical scholar like Sherman, Jason etc. So I reckon they could say something useful and more informed about this point. :slight_smile: - But my hunch is that I’m pointing in the right direction here :blush:

#6

And yet it talks about heaven and salvation hundreds of times. Eventually Eric, and not too long if your enthusiasm comes through, you will be able to answer these questionings easily and succintly. And yet, in the original texts, there was no mention of hell at all. 4 different words with 3 different meanings were interpreted as hell in 1611 when the bible was translated in English. Not the first time that mistake was made when translating. The Septuagent did the same. The english word hell with a saxon or norse root simply meant ‘to cover or conceal’, now means a place of eternal torment in the same language 400 years later. How did that happen? Someone with an agenda hijacked the word. You will learn all of this, including how to raise the subject of universalism. just keep your passion. :mrgreen:

#7

Thanks, and I’m going to say, the Doctrine of Hell, is The Big Fat Satanic LIE! :slight_smile:

Satan is not winning hands down by taking Billions in to Hell, by mocking God that he is powerful than him,
this God will be a weak God! but in Bible said Jesus is more powerful than Satan :wink:

some Universalisms think a little similar to Calvanism that God is choosing just few people now (Elects), in this world. then billions will be saved After Lake of Fire judgement Age, he allowed satan to rule this world, in order to fulfill the Plan, for his Kingdom to come, :slight_smile:

I recently researched in this site about ages and it was beautiful:
codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscrip … omSlider=0
(Eph 3:21 - 21 αυτω η δοξα εν τη εκκληϲια και εν χω ιυ ειϲ παϲαϲ ταϲ γενεαϲ του αιωνοϲ] των αιωνων] αμην –
21 to him be glory in the church in Christ Jesus through all the generations of the [age] of [ages]: amen.)

the word “αἰώ” meant “Centuries” in Google translate (although I know Google translate is not accurate, and when I type the word “αιωνοϲ” it meant “eternal” and this one too: αἰώνιος)
[studybible.info/strongs/G166] the real meaning in this website is: Lasting for an Age!

and for Revelation they translated it: Chapter 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night from age to age. :smiley:

and I asked one of the L. Ray Smith students about Matthew 25:46 he told me this: The proper translation is this: “Then they [Satan’s ministers (human and spirit {demons})] will go away to age-abiding [an EON, which is a period with a beginning AND ENDING] chastisement [not punishment], but the righteous [the Body of Christ] to [reign for] age abiding [an EON, which is a period with a beginning and ENDING, 1000 years with Christ] life.”

my idea was this, that matched with his idea too, I knew it was talking about 1st and 2nd resurrection:
And these will go away into age lasting (aionios) corrective punishment (kolasis) [Lake of Fire Judgement Age], but the righteous into age lasting (aionios) life [MILLENNIUM AGE].

similar to: John 5:29
and come out–those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.

#8

Eric, I already posted this to you privately, but just to make it available to others . . .

Jesus didn’t talk about hell at all. He never uttered a word that could accurately be translated as “hell.” At least nothing that could be translated to the concept of hell that the modern church typically holds. He always says either Hades or Gehenna, and sometimes refers to the “outer darkness.” Your correspondent is making a lot of assumptions. First, he’s exaggerating. Jesus doesn’t talk about “hell” ten times more than He talks about heaven. Second, while it is true that Jesus mentions “hell” more than anyone else in scripture, that is because it is almost NEVER mentioned elsewhere in scripture. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I believe that Jesus utters a word that we would find translated as “hell” in some translations of the gospels around 10 - 11 times. This includes speeches that are recorded more than once. I counted once, and I think I came up with four unique uses. (That is, four times He said Hades or Gehenna, but these occurrences were reported in two or more gospels – so you can’t fairly count them twice – thus, four (approximately)).

Blessings, Cindy

#9

The seriously stupid thinking is that God, while creating everything…took a coffee break and while he had his back turned, Satan snuck in and threw some evil into the brew and God couldn’t do anything about it and had to do the best that he could with the mix. An all powerful, all knowing God was caught unawares and couldn’t fix it. How ridiculous. And people get to choose outside of God’s will to do evil and hell is their reward for this is to burn for eternity. Forget the fact that ‘eternity’ wasn’t in the original texts like hellfire either. It’s all a lie, built upon a myth and served up on a platter of bull-pucky…and the church eats it all up. It shows that they don’t know God and his nature at all. They just haven’t been taught properly. And they are never challenged with the truth and the silliness of their position. Keep up the good work studying Eric. :mrgreen:

#10

Thank you, well said, watchman1706, and thanks to you too Cindy, before knowing anything about Universalism,
I was in doubt of eternity of hell, thinking that you are saved and others are not saved, is selfishness,
we are going to be saved from second death, nowhere in the Bible says Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved
from Eternal Hell. and you are right, they don’t know the nature of God, he had a purpose for creating Satan, Father himself made Lucifer that way in order to sin, Father himself killed his Son on the Cross (part of the Plan, in prayer
before Crucifixion Jesus prayed in order to happen what Father wanted), the Infernalism think Satan is a powerful enemy without being control by God :smiley:

#11

That does happen.

I don’t think your friend even knew what you were talking about. I can imagine Satan trying to convince people that God will fail and be defeated, or that God is only power and not essentially love, and I can certainly imagine him trying to convince people that sin isn’t real, or that sin is harmless; but I have trouble imagining Satan trying to convince people that he himself will lose and be so humbled by the loss that he will repent of his sin and return to being loyal to God. “God totally wins and brings even the worst sinner back to righteousness” is supposed to be a Satanic lie???

It might be mistaken, but it isn’t something that the worst rebel would ever try to convince people about.

And tended to aim those warnings at lazy and uncharitable servants of His (up to and including the apostles themselves), especially as warnings against expecting some kind of hopeless punishment.

But people arguing in favor of hopeless punishment, never manage to mention that somehow. :sunglasses:

(I’m not going to quibble about whether Jesus talked about “hell” or not: He talked about post-mortem punishment, and talked about hades/sheol which the Old English “hell” translates just fine, as they all mean pit or unseen or grave. The better question is whether He talked about hell being hopeless.)

Which isn’t the end of the story for those who find destruction; and in GosLuke when someone wants to hear from Jesus that this means only a few are being saved, Jesus bluntly warns him that he’s going to be unpleasantly surprised (if he doesn’t shape up) to find many coming from the far corners of the world to recline with Abraham in the kingdom of God but he himself being cast into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So, not a good idea to ask Jesus if only a few are being saved. :wink:

I tend to agree with that. But that says nothing against the Spirit leading everyone eventually to come to Jesus and repent of their sins.

Apparently your friend is thinking of those super-liberal religious pluralists who teach that there is no such thing as sin (except maybe in other people :wink: ).

If that verse means only some people will be saved, it must mean only the apostles (and maybe a few other disciples in the room at the moment) are the only ones who will be saved, in which case your friend is just as much toast as anyone else (and the gospel must be about preaching the good news that only the first apostles are saved). :unamused:

At that moment Jesus wasn’t praying for the world, but for the apostles. He’s trying to strengthen the apostles by warning them ahead of time what’s going to happen and that it will turn out all right (even though they’re going to betray Him as utterly as Judas Iscariot, or in Peter’s case even moreso).

So don’t let people bully you with those particular verses: they are only prooftexting without paying attention to thematic or narrative context.

(My exegetical notes are at the office; I’ll try to remember to post up an entry on those verses this week.)

If your friend said that, he was strangely confused. The scriptures prophesy that everyone will eventually seek the Lord and worship Him loyally; and if we, being evil, seek that our misbehaving children should become righteous, how much more will our Father in heaven lead His children, made in His image, to ask Him for the Holy Spirit.

I can’t tell if that was you or your friend, but whoever showed those verses didn’t bother to lead him to check the contexts, as Jesus was expecting them to keep His new command of loving one another: which under the circumstances could only mean loving Judas Iscariot, as Jesus loved them who also were going to betray Him. (I argue this in more detail here.)

#12

Thank you Jason, Satan is not winning hands down by taking Billions in to Hell, this God will be a weak God!

I don’t want to challenge with him, because he is insisting on his belief, just like CARM,

CARM is saying about Universalism: Love Wins,
CARM’s opinion: God Wins,
CARM doesn’t even know what is the meaning of God wins, :smiley:

There is no difference between the two (God wins, Love wins), we are going to ask CARM,

what is the meaning of God wins?
and we will answer ourselves: it means God’s Love will eventually Save ALL, :smiley:

God is Pure Love, Pure Forgiveness,
so if God is Pure Love, and if God wins, it means his Love wins too, so eventually God’s Love Wins :wink:

when CARM Is saying God wins, it means he will fulfill his Plan, not Satan, the problem of Arminianism is they don’t ask
themselves WHO CREATED SATAN? :sunglasses:

#13

Recently I read the New Testament (the Book of Revelation) in Armenian (I have just the New Testament Book),

I saw that just NLT is translated the verse below correctly that matched with my book:
Revelation 22:4 And they will see his face, and his name WILL be WRITTEN on their foreheads. (notice God is still registering people’s names in book of life) :astonished:

Revelation 22:2 (NLT) It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to HEAL the NATIONS. (tree of life is healing the WICKED(the repentant sinners)) :astonished:

Revelation 21:25 (NIV) On NO day will its gates ever be shut (notice God is still registering people’s names in book of life), for there will be NO NIGHT there. (NIGHT is a SPIRITUAL night, called the DARKNESS), Kingdom of darkness will be over by lake of fire which will destroy the old earth, :slight_smile:

Revelation 20:12 (proper translation from Codex Sinaiticus) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne; and the BOOKS were opened; and ANOTHER book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of the things that were written in the books, according to their works. (there are other books for judging the angels)

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night from AGE to AGE.

Revelation 22:5 (proper translation from Codex Sinaiticus) And there shall be NO MORE NIGHT; and they have no need of the lamp, nor of the light of the sun; for the Lord God will give them light; and they shall reign from AGE to AGE.

  • 1st Layer of Bible meaning is Arminianism: because of mistranslation, (PROVE is BELOW and ABOVE)
  • 2nd Layer of Bible meaning is Annihilationism:

Ashes under your feet?

As the prophet Malachi explained, “‘For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘that will leave them neither root nor branch’” (Malachi 4:1). Continuing, God says to the righteous, “‘You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the LORD of hosts” (verse 3).

Because of the mistaken idea that humans have an immortal soul, many have likewise mistakenly assumed that the wicked will suffer eternal torment in an ever-burning fire. But this is not what the Bible teaches. Instead, unrepentant humans will be mercifully destroyed.

no this God will be a weak God, :angry: Annihilationism didn’t understand the real meaning of ASHES, and the word DESTROY,
this is not a literal destruction, but a spiritual destruction, the whole Bible is spiritual, not literal :smiley:

Bible didn’t said God wants some to be saved, but He Desires All to be saved, and for God anything is possible,
so He has the POWER to Save All. we should not make God a weak God, First we should Understand the Nature of God. :wink: ***

  • 3rd Layer of Bible meaning is Universalism: this is the DEEPEST meaning, because of the Old Testament Harshness,
    it is difficult to understand, like the verses of the Revelation I wrote above, :slight_smile:

There was a pre-Adamic age, that the earth was formless with darkness (fall of satan), AND God said:
Let there be Light (this was not the Sun, this was a spiritual Light), but the Global Catastrophic judgement (war
in Heaven), that Lucifer was defeated by God, :smiley:

#14

In Malachi 4, God says this punishment is coming to all sinners, which must include the rebel religious leaders from Malachi 3; but God explicitly says of their punishment that the purpose is to purge and refine them with the fire so that they will become as clean as with laundry soap. It is precisely because YHWH is “I AM” Who does not change, that the sons of Jacob are not consumed despite being traitors who continually turn away from God (such as in 3:7).