The Evangelical Universalist Forum

If Christ’s death God’s will, then His killers are heros…

Yom Kippur, or ‘The Day of Atonement’ in Judaism said to be a time set aside to ‘afflict the soul’, to atone for the sins of the past year. Ten days prior is Rosh Hosannah, or ‘Days of Awe’ or ‘Days of Rememberance’ or even "Days of Judgement’, following the holiday in Lev. 23:24-25, God writes in the books the fate of the wicked, the righteous, and of an intermediate class. The names of the righteous are written in the book of life. The names of the intermediate class have ten days between Rosh Hosannah and Yom Kippur to respite, to repent and become righteous. But the wicked are blotted out of the BoL. The shofar (ram’s horn) is blown and meant to awaken listeners out of their slumbers and to alert them to the coming judgment.

For us ‘to afflict our soul’ we are saying that there is something is off, apart from ourselves that we should be seeking that is not pleasant. It is certainly not pleasant to come before an all-consuming God in the state that we are in, at least not without the intention to want to change.

If one is going to say that Christ bore all that so that we don’t have to, I think it misses the point. Rather that when the time comes, though we will suffer that affliction, Christ is right there to help us through it. It is and will be painful, because we know that as we seek righteousness, we do not have that righteousness, and so the process of getting there seems to be far away. But the journey there is tempered by Christ, who is our Righteousness, in that He was able to go through this life without sin, therefore able through the instrument of the Holy Spirit, to succor us. Despite some claims that all our sins are washed away at the moment of salvation, as if our sins were able to be collected in some kind of bucket, we need to deal with the source of sin, which is the wicked heart from which sin proceeds. And that just cannot be ‘poof’ in there.

I would have it that once we are ‘born again’ all our wickedness would go away. But it is evident that while we may have a change of heart, our heart isn’t automatically changed. Christians still sin. So do Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and Pastafarians. If we look to Christ and learn from Him, how He was able to obey the Father, love with a love that covers a multitude of sin, we will make our repentence from sin realized. My guess is that it will take time, perhaps more than a lifetime. But as long as we respond to His call to that repentence, we will see it’s fruit spring up.

First of all, TV, I want to apologize for not responding to this post. Jason and I hve been kicking the issue back and forth so much and went off in tangents, that for some reason I forgot to respond to this post.

I would say that Christ was punished WITH us. Or least He’s there in the process. That grace isn’t there to keep us in the state of sin, rather His grace is sufficient to bring us up to His level, what He implored the disciples that unless our righteousness exceeds the Pharisee’s we can by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. A willing heart that leans toward practicing righteousness will become righteous (I John 3:7). Unlike the Pharisees who practiced righteousness to be approved of men, but their hearts were far from God. We ought to practice righteousness to please God. It’s not that we are pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps, it’s that God is there every step of the way through the Holy Spirit to lift us up out of the quagmire. As the Spirit is there, comforting us, convicting us, teaching us righteousness,we in coopertion with God will see that dayspring of righteousness break through. No, it’s not our righteousness, but God’s righteousness working through ous (Keep in mind that the Law is from God, so the law is, in effect, God’s rightouesness, but it has to be obeyed through the heart, where evil resides).

Sacrifices is that in which there is an intimate connection between the one sacrificing and the sacrifice itself. It is a worship of God. You are worshipping God together with that sacrifice, acknowledging God and His goodness (Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac is a worship, go back and read Gen 22). When we worship God through Christ, we are worshipping God with Him. When the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies, he went in not of just his own accord, but he represented the people of God too. He stood in the stead of the people because only one person could enter and that was the High Priest. But through Christ, we all have access to the throne of God, as the Spirit dwells in temples not made by hands, that is our flesh.

Jason, Dondi, appreciated…

3 references/comments to share…

  1. Have just reread Greg Boyd’s essay on the theory of the Atonement he finds most complete and true to the bible; the Christus Victor essay. And I must say that I simply find it quite reasonable to deduce UR from this model.

gregboyd.org/essays/essays-j … atonement/

  1. I very much liked the inferences of how much the death of Jesus demonstrates His solidarity with us. Beautiful. Reminds me of an essay I read earlier this week from Christian Cadre (don’t you write for them too Jason??)

christiancadre.blogspot.com/2008 … is-of.html

  1. And last, I’ve been enjoying the book, edited by Brad Jersak, titled Stricken by God – which was recommended by someone on this site. Thanks, whoever made that rec some many months ago!!! This is from Brad’s essay, which is the first one.

“The message of the Cross is not ‘I died so that you don’t need to,’ but ‘Die with me so that you might RISE with me!’”

(OK, caps and exclamation points are mine. :smiley: :smiley:
A stunning idea to which Jason often alludes…)

And the only barrier to everybody rising with Christ to new life (since we believe the Cross WAS for all) is this notion of the “freedom” to refuse to chose it…
Maybe we need to be talking more about freedom???
(am working on a post like this…)

TotalVictory
Bobx3

1.) This reminds me I still haven’t read GB on the topic! (Thanks for reffing it again so I’ll recall it. :smiley: )

Who is it here who gets together with Greg every once in a while? It’s one of you two, isn’t it?

2.) Yep! I know Joe (Metacrock) pretty well, too. (I’ll be curious to see how he incorporates his recent Balthasar studies.)

3.) Yes, Rom 6 (also reffed by Joe in his article) is an important staple in that line of thought. (I first learned to pay attention to that from Lewis, who probably got it from his teacher MacD who certainly promoted it, too.)

I posted a new related thread entitled “The Messiah That Could’ve Been” in the Biblical Theology section that will explore possibilities I’ve presented in this thread. I didn’t want to clutter up TotalVictory’s intent here, though I probably already have.