it seems to me that nobody should never go in the lake of fire because (i believe in unlimited atonement) Jesus paid
but if the cross exists for correction, purification (hebrews) it is clear that if the sacrifice of Jesus is not imputed to someone because he has not faith in Christ , he is still in a need of purification in the lake of fire
i am not totally convinced by universalism
Erwan,
What Jesus experienced at Golgotha was not about vengeance, payment for sin or correction and purification. These peculiar concepts have been incorporated into a lot of Christian thinking about the Gospel and have distorted it beyond recognition. They echo the notions and sentiments of religion rather than the life giving justice (*tsedaq *and dikaiosune) of God that makes all things right and new.
It all really comes down to a very simple concept that is true not just for us humans but for all creation–every creature, the planets, the stars, the whole wide universe. It is about life, nothing exist other than the life of God freely given to create and fill that which is not God with the very life energy of the creator.
Now the creation lives by the limited energy budget that the universe contains from the initial moment of creation–the Big Bang. Stars grow old and die some becoming super novas which spew out their guts into the universe when they die and their “dust and ashes” are recycled into new stars, planets and solar systems. Plants derive energy by converting sunlight, produced by the slowly dying Sun through nuclear fusion that converts its hydrogen into helium until it is depleted and eventually dies, into their cellular structure. Animals consume and kill plants and derive energy/nutrients by breaking the molecular bonds of their living cells to release the energy in them. Some animals consume other animals and so on. The bottom line is that everything in the universe sustains itself by the death of something else. But it is life taken from others and not freely given. This is an unsustainable state of affairs and it leads to great destruction and inequitableness. We can see this happening all around us on the Earth. Human civilization has brought the living Earth to a terminal crisis point, the sixth great extinction event is happening as we speak. The atmosphere has been poisoned and forced into disequilibrium by the opening of the graveyard of the Earth (oil and coal) and burning for energy the long dead phytoplankton, plants and other creatures carefully sequestered away by Earth processes to protect the living biosphere from the toxins of the dead. The Oceans are dying through acidification and over exploitation and being used as a planetary cesspool for all manor of industrial and agricultural waste. Even the ground itself is being poisoned by the injection of trillions of gallons of toxic waste into deep injection wells compromising the vast underground freshwater oceans–the aquifers rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/21/experts-find-30-trillion-tons-of-toxic-liquid-injected-into-earth-poisons-ground-water/ Air, water and ground, the primary foundations of the living biosphere are being destroyed by the hubris of humans. All because we must take the life of others, even of the Earth itself, to sustain us and more than that to satisfy the insatiable human desire for power over others–to be like gods.
The ironic and astonishing thing is that the real God for a real world is not about power at all. Not at all like the gods of religion that demand the sacrifice of the lives of others and the satisfaction of punitive “justice;” or lord over others through omnipotent power. No, the real God is not even recognizable as a God at all. He is revealed to the world as a condemned religious outcast hanging helplessly on a Roman cross. The very epitome of non-power. Behind the visage of the godforsaken dereliction of Jesus is the answer to the dilemma facing all things on Earth, and in the universe. How can we live without taking the lives of others? The only answer, “the Way, the Truth and the Life” is by a Life freely given to all.
In and through Jesus the life of the creator, the sole source and possessor of life, is poured out into creation and into the depths of the abyss of nothingness and death. He overcomes death not through superior might but by filling it with the very life of God so that even death itself becomes a place of life and is no longer death.
Their is much concern about the Lake of Fire in Christian thought. Is it the ultimate exception or limit to the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Is it the destiny for the irremediably lost or an alternative to what God has done for the whole creation through the singular effort of Jesus on the cross?
The Lake of Fire is mentioned only in the Book of Revelation, as far the Biblical witness is concerned. It is also found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The Egyptian Book of the Dead is about the individual making his/her way through the underworld undergoing a “trial by fire” (with rivers and lakes of fire being part of that process) while Revelation is about the unveiling of Jesus Christ, The Lamb of God who takes on and endures all of the pain and suffering of the history of the world from beginning to end, the Alpha and Omega. Much like the early Babylonian creation and flood myths were cast in a new light by the author(s) of Genesis to reflect the defining presence of YHWH in those stories. The Apocalypse of Jesus Christ is also redefining not only pagan notions of afterlife punishment (the lake of fire) but the whole history of the world that is a long litany of war, pestilence, plague and death. It is the Lamb who for the sake of the creation overcomes all those horrors and tragedies of the history of the world, not through almighty power (a lion) but as the immolated Lamb, the Crucified One.
The Lake of Fire is the presence of Theion, the healing, transforming life of God. It is not a place of separation from God but the actual immersion into the purifying, healing presence of God. Healing is not punitive it is restorative—and even more so it is creative, a new creation. That’s right. It is not at all what has been falsely presented in the translations. The angels (messengers of God) and the Lamb are present on the shore of the lake (limnhn, the root of which is limen, which means “harbor” and it is associated with the nearness of the shore). The Lamb is there with them in the safe harbor of the healing, transforming presence of YHWH. The Lake of Fire is not about torment (basanizo is the testing by the touchstone to determine whether the metal/object is purified), either everlasting or temporary. It is to determine whether that which is immersed into the presence of YHWH and the Lamb has been freed/healed from all that oppressed and corrupted it and is made ready for the birth into their new life that is the new creation in Jesus Christ). All that is not in the book of the life of the Lamb is brought into intimate closeness with the very source of life, YHWH and the Lamb. They are embraced by the Life, freed from all that has tormented them with fear, abandonment, nihilism and hopelessness. Then they become like little children who enter into the new creation of God.
When God rewrites the story of our lives he is writing it from the Lamb’s book of life. That book is not some sort of ledger book with a list of names and those who’s name is not in the book is consigned to the lake of fire. In most translations Rev. 13:8 is rendered as the Book of Life of the Lamb. But instead of only the two definite articles as translated in English it has three in the Greek so it should be translated as: “the scroll of the life of the lamb.” It is not simply a ledger book of those who go straight to “heaven” and the others not found in the book are sent to the lake of fire, whether it be a place of everlasting torment or limited, purgative torment. The book of life is the book of the life of Christ. It is actually the book that contains the complete life of the Lamb, who is the Alpha and Omega, the new Adam, the Logos in and through whom all things are made and live. Our new lives are already in Christ (“we are new creatures in Christ”) waiting to be revealed and reborn in the resurrection of the new creation of all things.
We all live in a state of death. Our daily sustenance depends on the taking of the life of others, whether it be animals or plants. We all partake in the Babylonian systems of exploitation and oppression of the living Earth and of those who are among the least and weakest. If we do not see this then we are in profound denial about the true state of this world. The only alternative to this world of death is a world made new by a Life freely given to all. Not a life forcefully or fraudulently taken from the powerless to stave off our own inevitable deaths, but a Life freely given to all by the sole possessor of Life, YHWH and the Lamb.
The Book of Revelation is both about the Revelation given to Jesus Christ and the revelation of Jesus Christ. The Lamb discloses the true meaning of history and defines and rewrites the history of the world. The Lamb is in complete empathetic solidarity with all those who suffer the horrors and injustices of this reality. He is the Lamb who takes all of the suffering, injustice and death away from the history of the world. He makes way for the unimpeded outpouring of the Life of YHWH into the creation to heal, transform and make new all that has been lost, tormented and killed.
There is no rapture or escape from the suffering of this world, instead there is the Lamb immersing himself into the very depths of the world’s suffering, despair and death. He takes the source of Life into the very abyss of godforsaken nothingness to transform that godforsaken place into the wellspring of God’s living waters, which fills the creation with life all bountiful. It is the faithfulness of the Lamb which goes into those depths where the faithless have fallen into and like the good shepherd will not rest until the most godless are brought into the healing safe harbor of the living presence of Theion and the Lamb. All things will be made new, all things will be written with a new story and name into the Lamb’s book of Life—the Alpha and Omega of all creation.
DaveF:
Glory, that was beautiful
Hi, Erwan 
You said:
I believe there’s good reason to see the Lake of Fire (LoF) as a symbol of the bronze laver. The bronze laver was a big water container that was placed just outside the holy place of the Temple/Tabernacle. The priests had to wash their hands and feet in it before they went into the holy place. Among other things, the laver symbolizes Jesus cleansing us by His word. So the laver is a place for removing uncleanness.
In this way, I believe the LoF also destroys uncleanness. I believe that Jesus did save us from our sins and from the penalty of our sins. According to Colossians 1, we have been rescued from the domain of darkness (this world) and transferred into the kingdom of the Son of God’s love. That is for right now. So even though we live physically in this world, we are under the kingship of Jesus. We are no longer slaves to sin.
But people who have not believed in Jesus may still be slaves to sin. They may be bound by their bad habits and ways of thinking and doing and not able to free themselves. I believe the LoF is God’s way of cleansing and freeing those who cannot or do not believe during their earthly life. Maybe some don’t need to go there, and maybe some go only for a short time.
I do NOT believe that it is a literal lake of fire, though. Fire in the bible is nearly always a symbol of purification. Despite this, going to the LoF is still a bad, very bad thing. It is well worth NOT going, and should be sufficient motivation for people to choose Life in the here and now, if motivation makes any difference. Even suffering from severe depression for a week is misery. Imagine suffering the LoF for as long as it takes to cure you! (Whatever it turns out to be, I don’t want to go there unless it’s absolutely the only way to make me right.)
Now, it sounds like maybe you’re having some struggles with atonement theory. Atonement theory is the study of how Jesus’ coming to earth, living and dying on the cross and rising again actually works to save people. Here is a link to a discussion we had a while back on this subject: [Poll: What’s Your Theory of Atonement?) Maybe it will help you sort things out.
Blessings, Cindy
Wow! - DaveF! What a powerful post!
You’ve given me a lot to think about. If you have any sources I could go to which echo your post I am very interested.
Thank you.
I agree with Cindy. “Everyone will be salted with fire” (Mark 9:49)
Everyone needs correction. Jesus gave a parable about 3 slaves (note that all 3 were slaves of the master). All 3 needed correction. The one who did not know his master’s will but did things that deserved a beating, was given a light beating. The one who did know his master’s will but did evil things anyway, was given a heavy beating. But the third, who said to himself, "My master delays his coming (perhaps he believed his master would never return) and began to beat his fellow slaves, was thrown into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The very purpose of Christ’s death was to make the enabling grace of God (Titus 2) available to us.
Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews all give the reason for Christ’s death — that we might overcome wrongdoing and live righteously:
I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The idea of Christ’s death serving to appease the anger of a righteous and vengeful God is a Satanic lie. Many or most of the non-Christian religions of the world attempt to pacify their gods with sacrifices so that their gods won’t harm them.
But neither is Christ’s death a means to “pay” for everyone’s sins so that everyone can be acceptable to God whether they repent (have a change of heart and mind) or not.
Hi Pilgrim,
Before I wrote that post I had no well informed thoughts on the particulars of the lake of fire. I was well aware of how it has been used as a symbol of dire threat both by those who hold to ECT and to a lesser degree of threat by those who see it as a temporary purgative process. Both views see it as horrifically painful and to be avoided at all costs. I can understand why they come to such a conclusion when most English translations (interpretations really) lean in the direction of the lake of fire being a type of excruciating hellish experience, everlasting or temporary.
Melchizedek asked me, in the Richard Beck" Holiness in Heaven, The Need for Purgation," thread how the Greek word *basanizo * (usually translated as torment) should be understood. This prompted me to do some research. I came across a blog that commented on this matter: whatgoddoes.com/?tag=basanizo . To confirm that the author was correct in asserting that the meaning of basanizo was not “to torment,” I did further research through lexicons and it was confirmed and it makes a lot more contextual sense too. After all, it is the Lamb who is present with them and the brimstone is theion from the root Theos (God). While these technical details were an exciting revelation they were consistent with the intuitive sense I have had about all this since I first was exposed to the unbounded dimensions of the Gospel of Jesus Christ 30 years ago.
I remember reading Jacque Ellul’s “The Apocalypse” in 1982 and feeling like the scales have been lifted from my eyes. Never before have I seen a commentary about the Revelation of Jesus Christ that actually read the book through the lens of the Lamb instead of the all too common christian horror porn. It is entirely understandable how Christians have been mislead into believing that God is something other than what He has revealed Himself to be in Jesus Christ–the Lamb. The translations are more often than not interpretations with an agenda; an agenda that distorts and conceals the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is well known by those who frequent this board that the correct translation of aionos is not everlasting or eternal. This being one of the key words in the Bible has unlocked the truth of the universal scope of salvation for many. The correct translation of aionos was something I wasn’t aware of for the first 15 years after I began to see the universal scope of the Gospel. But despite all of the problematic texts that seem to insist on some sort of everlasting damnation it did not nullify that vision of the Crucified One at Golgotha who brought the life of God to the most godless, damned and godforsaken-- even into the abyss of the annihilating nothingness. This was not about Jesus dying to pay for our sins or to appease an angry God. God did not need to be reconciled to His creation by some sort of blood sacrifice. He has always accepted His creation, even the broken, “fallen” creation–especially so. Our sins do not need to be paid for; they need to be taken away, annihilated. But it is so much more than about sins. It is about the justice of God. God making all things right not only by undoing all of the wrongs of history but by filling every corner of creation with His Life to heal and transform all things–and to make possible the impossible.
You know the expression “it took my breathe away,” it’s said when you encounter something truly astonishing and even transforming. This brings to mind what Paul wrote in Philippians, "He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death - even to death on a cross. For this reason God highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow - of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth - and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:8-11)
At the Parousia will be the ultimate “take my breathe away” moment, when we finally see Him for who he truly is and what He has done for all of us at Golgotha. It will be the ultimate “take our sins away,” “take our pain away,” “take our death away” moment. This is what allows us to see ourselves as we really are, both as our former selves (which brings us shame and weeping and gnashing of teeth) and our new selves (the new creation that we are in Him.) It is by His obedience, His suffering and death–by His stripes–that we come to repentance (a change of mind and perception)of and towards what God is really like. Finally, we will be truly reconciled to God because we will see and know Him as He truly is. The false portrayal of God as a celestial Shylock or an omnipotent cosmic potentate will melt away in the liberating sunrise of His appearing. We then will be free to trust God completely for our life and live equitably and justly towards all of our fellow creatures.
Dave
Hi, Dave
I meant to say that your post was great, too, but I went and pushed reply and then it slipped my mind. It was an amazing work of art and philosophy. I hope you don’t take from my small attempt at an answer that I thought yours was lacking in any way. It’s just that Erwan’s first language isn’t English, and I thought something shorter and using a little bit easier language might be helpful. (And even so, I got a little carried away.) So yes . . . thanks so much!
Blessings, Cindy
Dave that second post clearly describes what i see. I believe Ive had a lof moment in a vision and “seen” the take your breath away moment you describe. Your words there were like a great writer describing my experience. Beautiful.
Your vision is very interesting redhotmagma. No, it is more than interesting, I think it is extraordinary considering how much the day of judgment, lake of fire and other descriptions of the full on encounter with the Living God has struck so much fear and terror into so many and for so long. This is the legacy of the take home message that Christianity has given to the world. The apocalypse (the unveiling) of Jesus Christ is now synonymous with cataclysmic death and destruction and Armageddon has become the byword for the megadeath of nuclear war or some such final blood bath. And it is nothing of the sort at all.
If penal substitution atonement is a satanic lie then the false misrepresentation of the judgment of God as a terror is its twin. Both slander God and act as obstacles to the world being reconciled to God as He really is.
Dave
Dave that vision along with the word eternal implanted in my head right after is what brought me to UR
Dave, that is AWESOME, your long post and follow-ups!
Robin has introduced us to the film Hellbound with the trailer, so I visited the website. The following link is of some relevance to this thread
Dhttp://www.hellboundthemovie.com/the-t … mment-1210
It appears that Derek Flood is involved. It was his book Penal Substitution vs Christus Victor that brought me to UR and later to this Forum in both cases encouraged by Andrew Tweedy.
Michael in Barcelona
Thanks for bringing this to my attention Michael. I checked it out it has a lot of good content in the blog there. The film can possibly become a real event if it gets a fairly wide release and some media buzz to promote it. Things sure have changed since I began to see the universal scope of the Gospel 30 years ago. Back then you were truly isolated with only a few insightful books by Ellul, Barth and Moltmann and some others to find encouragement from. Now with the internet and the wide distributions of documentaries through DVD, online and cable a lot more people are being exposed to the truth of the Gospel and having interaction with those who also beginning to see the true dimensions of the Gospel. The Wind (ruach) is starting to blow out there and the world needs that refreshing breeze desperately – may it soon become a hurricane followed by the sunrise of universal resurrection.
Dave