The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Im new here,and just wanted to share my beliefs

Theology
#8

the only thing i would disagree with in that statement of faith, other than trinitarianism, is this

“We believe the Bible teaches the hope that God will eventually redeem all people through Christ.”

Mainly the word hope there. Id say that Gods word has made it clear that He is both willing and able to save all and thus it isnt a hope anymore but and expectation. That isnt to say its in expectation based on our own feelings but based on the authority of Gods word in which it states it. At least it should be looked at as an expectation by those who come to understand it based on scripture.

#9

ive never been one to say im a “hopeful universalist”.

To me it either is or isnt. And, thanks be to God, it is the true “good news”.

#10

if we hope it to be true, and it not be, then we assert we are more compassionate and merciful than God.

#11

I’m certainly in the “convinced universalist” group, as distinct from “hopeful universalist”. I think Robin Parry is there now, too. That statement of faith is quite dated.

#12

do you know if and where Parry posts anymore? His youtube has been inactive for a while.

#13

I don’t know. Evidently he’s been very active in other endeavors related to universalism:

#14

Hi ATR,
Nice to meet you. Your views sound similar to a guy who passed away a few years ago & his name was L. Ray Smith at bibletruths.com Smith said that God does indeed create evil not just allow it, for the purposes of creating “contrast” n life because we learn most things through experiencing contrast.

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#15

Nice to meet you as well!

Hey I know that guy! I didnt know he passed away though. Thats unfortunate. Ive watched a few of his videos on youtube. Seemed like a guy with fruit and a hunger for truth. And i like his explainations on many things im also in accord with him on most things. I dont think me and him have disagreed anywhere from what i remembered.

And yes I believe the contrast principle is all around us. Up and down, happiness and sadness, death and life, good and bad, love and hate. We even need a white background to contrast the black print on this page.

I think the main thing about it is that the purpose of evil will be used to bring about a greater good, thus nullifying it as evil in the long run and so epicurus was dumbfounded on the idea that a good God and an evil world could co-exist. And notice how he never even proposed a “what if God created evil, then why call him good” scenario. It didnt even come into his mind of how that one could even be logical from the get go.

The very act of evil creating good can be seen no better than at Christ death.

#16

I can only ponder but id imagine the greater good coming from evil that would justify it being created would be

To glorify Christ

To present God the opportunity to show His unconditional mercy, love, righteousness and power to reconcile all things to Himself.

To give man experience so that he can appreciate the reconciliation to come and creation being put into order and harmony again

To me that would justify why God purposes, or even allows if you believe in free will, evil.

#17

Yes a great example. Also at least for me ,perhaps it took a Hitler & his evils to make it possible for Israel to be reborn. Also I think God said he waited for the Cannanites sins to fully ripen before he destroyed them after 450 years or so? Maybe there is a clue in there? Maybe evil has to fully ripen to be fully destroyed? Just speculating!

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#18

I also think that those we deem to evil to save are necessary to show how powerful Gods love and mercy is. And so that no man can boast about himself being saved. Could we really boast about being saved from death and separation from God if He reconciled hitler?

#19

Yes I agree but also just thinking about Jesus life,death and resurrerction are enough to humble almost anyone. I still have a view that accepts salvation after death which may or may not lead to CU but everyone will have an even playing field. My thinking is that in the afterlife we may for the first time have real free will and be responsible for our decisions because our eyes will finally be able to see clearly.

#20

Im telling you. there is no greater freedom in this life from fear then to know that God will have all to be saved. Scripture says He is both willing and able to save all. So theres no way it CANT happen. How that comes about is a debate to some, but the outcome cannot be denied. No more worry about your atheist friends and family. You know they are in the hands of a God who loves them and knows more whats best for them than we do.

#21

According to L Ray Smith the unsaved are saved through the Lake of Fire culminating in Rev 22.17 which says that whosoever may drink the water of life freely!

#22

BTW L Ray Smith has a series on his website called “The Lake of Fire” really worth reading. It’s at bibletruths.com

#23

Hey ATR, I’ve been on the same wavelengths as you regarding viewpoints. I’m really trying to test scripture and look for full biblical Truth. Your thoughts on Isaiah 45:7 is exactly what I’ve been exploring and find that it makes a lot more sense. I think the word ‘kolasis’ encapsulates the concept well, stating that God breaks down people, in order to build up greater over time. On another note, I would disagree with your views on judgement/second death. If you have heard of Full Preterism - that’s something that Im really in the process of trying to test (might take a couple years though…). If you have gone into it, I’d like your thoughts, but if not then I would highly recommend since I believe it holds better to Truth and Gods Love. Thoughts?

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#24

Hey Mik, sorry Im just now getting back to you! Good to see Im not the only one in the crazy camp! :stuck_out_tongue:

I will say this as a preface; Im no greek or hebrew scholar, Im not as well read in many theologies, and I cant speak for every preterist Im sure. I still have a hard time explaining what I believe sometimes in a concise manner, my long original post can attest to that haha. But to me,in my opinion, there is a lot in revelation that has not yet unfolded. I take the word death as literal , though I know some preterists take it figuratively, but even if death is figurative for spiritual death it has hardly been abolished and thus is that death is still reigning, there is still suffering and tears on faces, all have not yet come to Christ and all has not been reconciled to God, and there is still much evil in this world. Im willing to be corrected by any preterist and welcome their thoughts,beliefs and explainations on this post! im assuming this to them is more of a process working towards that goal possibly. I may have misunderstood some of the ones Ive talked too on here and outside the forum.

Simply put,to me, if this is the kingdom, I want my money back haha (a little dumb humor there, im not making fun of anyones personal beliefs). I think the book of revelation is hard, because there is admittedly a lot of symbolism which can be interpreted many different ways. But my rule of thumb has always been literal if possible, following a sound translation of course, and even when it is figurative it must still be grounded in literalism. For instance in the figurative statement “this bread is my body” both bread and body must be defined as its literal definition for the metaphoric comparison to be made and understood well.

I am always up to learning more, even if I dont agree, and being corrected if I misrepresent anything. But to me I dont believe in preterism and think tribulation is still to come. That revelations is future, possibly soon, and is more of a wake up call to the world than just retributive anger.

At the end of the day, I have my convictions. But I do not call myself a teacher by any means. So my opinion is just that. And I know I could be wrong. But this I do know, no matter whether I put the puzzle pieces together correctly or not I do know what the picture of the puzzle ends up as. And that is the salvation of all, God reconciling, vivifying, and justifying/forgiving all of His creation, and creation being back in harmony and peace and in perfected bliss and love.

#25

Hey, thanks for the reply. I love these types of in depth conversations - always nice finding people who are also crazy lol. The only reason I go into the Greek and Hebrew is because I think that you get a more direct and whole view of the idea that just isn’t really explored in the English versions of the bible. Going on that idea, with the Greek - the term “death” is quite interesting and I think very different than our usual western view. Apparently, in greek death means ‘separation,’ specifically of body separating from soul. ie. the body apart from the soul is dead. If this is the case I think that it relates well saying that pre 70ad/ or maybe 33ad, everyone was dead due to the point that their soul was in hades/sheol and their body separate. Yet, after 70ad/or 33ad - due to Jesus’ death, there was no longer this death (separation) of body and soul. All of this is quite heavy theory for me right now - but I do think that it is on the right track (More reading has to be done however).

On the kingdom, I would say that the one thing that the Hebrew people wanted back then (and worked towards) was fellowship with God. An actual relationship, something that they had to get through the use of the high priest once a year through atonement. That is definitely something that Christians in general would say that we have - fellowship and a relationship with God now in this age. I think that this point is quite central to the whole kingdom argument being here already. Im sure we are both on the same page when I say this - that this is pretty much trying to test scripture, and a lot of it is theory and could very well be wrong. Still like looking into this and keen to hear any theories you have with all of it!

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#26

Definitely! Its always nice, in this day and age, where two people can come together with different opinions and ideas and speak to each other in civility! Especially in the context of two people earnestly wanting and seeking truth! Some truths we may never know until the consummation and maybe even then still not know the full mystery of God!

Admittedly I know very little of preterism, what little I know is that it is the general theory is that revalations was the destruction of 70 ad. And to me it just leaves a lot of questions. And I wouldnt know where to put certain verses that, in my opinion, go farther in the eonian timeline such as the reconciliation of all things which I always saw as something immediately after revelations and revelations being the process that achieved that end.

I would gladly look into any resources you have, whether I end up agreeing or not,that way maybe I can at least come to a better understanding to their theory and the answers they have pertaining to anything I may not understand.

Also speaking of the isaiah 45:7 passage about God creating good and evil I find the very cross of Christ perplexing for this very notion. One of the greatest evils being the cross, purposed by God, brought about the greatest and most good achievement of His will. From our point of view as bad and rightfully so, was saw from Gods bird eye view and was used to create something overwhelmingly good!

Ill probably be off for the night but look foreward to any material you may have delving into the topic!

Goodnight and God bless friend.

#27

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This is always how Ive seen the timeline.