Would those Reformers who had righteousness imputed to them be the same ones who killed the “witches” around Geneva, or that slaughtered Anabaptists by the thousand, or that burned Michael Servetus at the stake?
I guess I’m looking for the ‘cash value’ (William James’ meaning) of the doctrine. I personally understand the doctrine and don’t believe it, at least in the way it is usually presented.
Dave,
I was thinking more along the lines of Jonathan Edwards and John Owen. Moreover history is distorted. Calvin never burned anyone. Others may have but they were going contrary to what Edwards taught when He said Vengeance belongs to God.
If therefore we see any of the followers of Christ, in the midst of the most violent, unreasonable and wicked opposition, of God’s and his own enemies, maintaining under all this temptation, the humility, quietness, and gentleness of a lamb, and the harmlessness, and love, and sweetness of a dove, we may well judge that there is a good soldier of Jesus Christ ~~ Jonathan Edwards
That’s right, and has nothing to do with a supposed imputed righteousness - those qualities are fruit of the Spirit, brought about by willing synergy with that Spirit. IMO.
I know I sounded harsh, but the Reformers hold no special place in my mind.
Imputed righteousness comes first. Edwards believed in imputed righteousness but we are also infused. Just as I stated in the OP and John Piper and William Lane Craig believe. William Lane Craig hasn’t burned a witch. Neither has John Piper and neither did Jonathan Edwards.
Ok, I know where you stand on that. Peace.
I applaud Edwards here. But while everyone knows Calvin did not do the burning, it seems clear that he applauded killing Servetus, and I share Thomas Talbott’s impression that his efforts to see Servetus beheaded, along with Luther’s support of massive violence, means that despite the leading reformer’s brilliance, we should be wary of looking to them for reliable guidance to the way of Christ
This issue was discussed previously here: Calvin and Servetus
James White has shown that that is a lie about Calvin. Just because one believes that they are covered in Christ’s righteousness when they have faith doesn’t make them evil. Those that just believe something without faith don’t understand faith. Piper and Edwards and Craig all believe in an infused righteousness along with imputed. Christ’s atoning death secures the future with his blood bought promises. Example:
Vengeance is Mine I will Repay
When my faith is in God the desires for sin is pushed out of the heart. I let go and let God handle it. Rather I love the enemy just like Christ did. Another example:
God works all things together for good for those that love Him.
I place my faith in God and Christ as it gives me hope. Righteousness is imputed but it’s also infused. If you think that’s dangerous you are blinded by Satan. Dealing with shame:
If we confess our sins He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
My faith is in God. Indeed. when facing temptation I trust God when He says
Resist the devil and he will flee.
It’s faith working itself out through love. When my future is in the hands of an all powerful and loving God who promises to work out all my circumstances for good, anxiety is broken as the heart opens up to love. The desires that lead to sin are pushed out of my heart as God infuses me and covers me with His righteousness.
In the opinion of Joseph Prince, a non Calvinist, righteousness is not right doing, but right being:
“For example, when you feel lousy because you have just shouted at your wife, God wants you to exercise your faith to see yourself as still righteous in the midst of that failure. This living revelation that you are still righteous will give you the strength to love your wife and reconcile things with her.”
"The devil may remind you of your foul temper and question your integrity: “How dare you call yourself righteous when you just did that!” Just ignore his lies and boldly declare, “I am not righteous because of what I have done or not done. I am righteous only because of the blood and finished work of Jesus at the cross!” "
“RIGHTEOUSNESS AND NOT SIN IMPUTED TO YOU”:
"Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
“You are blessed today because all your sins are forgiven in Christ. God does not count your sins against you. Instead, He counts you righteous in Christ.”
I’m finding out that reformers take issue with John Piper’s doctrine of justification. He believes that saving faith causes a change and produce good works and I agree with Him. He believes that our present justification is by faith alone but that final justification is in accord with our works:
John Piper: Present justification is based on the substitutionary work of Christ alone, enjoyed in union with him through faith alone. Future justification is the open confirmation and declaration that in Christ Jesus we are perfectly blameless before God. This final judgment accords with our works. That is, the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives will be brought forward as the evidence and confirmation of true faith and union with Christ. Without that validating transformation, there will be no future salvation. [Christianity Today, The Justification Debate: 2009, Compiled by Trevin Wax]
Sounds good to me but Reformers take issue with him and say he’s more in line with Rome with his idea that they call novel.
Yes, those who have submitted to Christ are so delivered. But as I said, this is not stated in the Christian Scriptures.
When I was a teenager, and believed as typical evangelicals do, I thought that Tom, the local pastor of the Baptist Church I attended never preached the gospel. He was always talking about submitting to Christ, but he never spoke of the necessity of “accepting Christ as personal Saviour” or “trusting in the finished work of Christ.” He established me, being an older teenager, as leader of the young people. Once when I was talking to the young people, Tom realized that I didn’t understand the true gospel. So in talking with me privately, he asked, “Don, what are we saved from?”
Knowing the Scriptures to some extent, I responded, “We are saved from sin.”
Then he asked, “And what does that mean?”
Then I said, “It means that we are saved from the consequences of sin.” I meant “Saved from hell fire.”
Then Tom said, "Don, nowhere is it written that we are saved from the consequences of sin. It is written that we are saved from SIN!
I wasn’t ready to accept that at the time, but around ten years later, I discovered from my own studies that Tom was RIGHT. He had been preaching the gospel all along, but I had been too blind to realize it.
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. ~~ Romans 5:9
It’s not either/or but both. We are saved from our sins as we are justified by faith. The same faith that justifies is the same faith that sanctifies. Of course I’m speaking of initial justification. Sanctification is a lifelong process until our final justification. As Piper states:
John Piper: Present justification is based on the substitutionary work of Christ alone, enjoyed in union with him through faith alone. Future justification is the open confirmation and declaration that in Christ Jesus we are perfectly blameless before God. This final judgment accords with our works. That is, the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives will be brought forward as the evidence and confirmation of true faith and union with Christ. Without that validating transformation, there will be no future salvation. [Christianity Today, The Justification Debate: 2009, Compiled by Trevin Wax]
Salvation = Salvation
Salvation = sanctification
Salvation = glorification
It is a widespread idea that “sanctification” is something different from “salvation”. We are being saved from sin, as a lifelong process. Call it “sanctification” if you will. There is no instantaneous salvation from hell, with the idea that sanctification is good, but not necessary in order to “get to heaven.” The truth is that if we are travelling the narrow path that leads to life, we will be right with God if we die at any time during that journey. But if we get off that narrow path, and choose our own path, we won’t.
The Bible says we were saved - we are being saved - and we will be saved. It contradicts you.
Note: this is H.T.'s response to Paidion.
H.T.: For us “uninformed”…can you share some verses, for EACH of those 3 categories?
We were saved
For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? ~~ Romans 8:24
We are being saved
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure. ~~ Phil. 2:12
We will be saved
“Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.~~ Romans 13:11
But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” ~~ Acts 15:11
I agree with what “The Bible says.” And it doesn’t contradict me.
The Greek verb translated as “were saved” is in the aorist tense. The aorist tense is not necessarily a past tense.
I can offer some much more effective verses to support completed salvation in the past:
(Ephesians 2:5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved — …
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God…
Here the verb is a “perfect passive” in both verses. That indicates a completed act.
These are the ONLY verses in the New Testament that definitely indicate salvation as completed. One of my Greek teachers (who was an Anglican priest) thought that these two verses were evidence that Paul was not the author of Ephesians since nowhere else does he use the perfect tense with respect to salvation.
qaz, consider travelling on an ordinary earthly path in order to get to a destination. You may “sin” (get off the path). Does that imply that there is no possibility of reaching your destination? No, it does not. You may find your way back to the path again.
In the matter of the narrow path that leads to life, of which Jesus spoke: It is not individual slips into wrongdoing that condemns one. It is living a sinful lifestyle, and having no desire to correct yourself. If your basic lifestyle is one of submission to God through Christ, you need not worry.
Here Jesus seems to connect salvation with forgiveness of sins:
Lk.7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. 49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph.1:7)
“He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.” (Colossians 1:13-14
“And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you.” (Ephesians 4:32)
” . . . bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.” (Colossians 3:13)
“Christian are already saved, past tense: “by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:5,8). The believer is already justified by faith, i.e., declared righteous by God on account of Christ. Thus the apostle Paul speaks of justification as something that has already occurred for the believer: “Therefore, having been justified by faith…much more then, having now been justified by His blood…” (Romans 5:1,9). He cannot be more or less justified, for His legal standing before God depends on the perfect righteousness and sacrifice of Christ. In this sense salvation is a specific, past event, and therefore the Christian can be assured that he is accepted by God.”
In the first quote, Jesus said, “Your faith has saved you,” not “My forgiveness has saved you.”
In the second quote the Greek word “αφεσις” (aphesis) has been translated as “forgiveness.” True, it sometimes does mean “forgiveness” but, any good Greek lexicon also gives the meaning “release from bondage or imprisonment.” I suggest this is Paul’s intended meaning in this verse:
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the release from sins, according to the riches of His grace.
As for “the riches of His grace,” in Titus 2, Paul speaks of the enabling grace of God that "trains us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, and also that Jesus gave Himself for us “to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works.” So we need to be freed from the bondage of sin.
Here’s another passage in which the word “aphesis” clearly means “release from bondage” and is so translated in most versions:
(Luke 4:18) “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed.
The word is translated here as “set at liberty.” Clearly Jesus didn’t mean “To forgive those who are oppressed.” The oppressed don’t need forgiveness; they need to be set free from oppression.