The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Imputation (The Robe of Righteousness)

The Greek verb translated as “were saved” is in the aorist tense. The aorist tense is not necessarily a past tense.

I can offer some much more effective verses to support completed salvation in the past:

(Ephesians 2:5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved — …
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God…

Here the verb is a “perfect passive” in both verses. That indicates a completed act.

These are the ONLY verses in the New Testament that definitely indicate salvation as completed. One of my Greek teachers (who was an Anglican priest) thought that these two verses were evidence that Paul was not the author of Ephesians since nowhere else does he use the perfect tense with respect to salvation.

qaz, consider travelling on an ordinary earthly path in order to get to a destination. You may “sin” (get off the path). Does that imply that there is no possibility of reaching your destination? No, it does not. You may find your way back to the path again.

In the matter of the narrow path that leads to life, of which Jesus spoke: It is not individual slips into wrongdoing that condemns one. It is living a sinful lifestyle, and having no desire to correct yourself. If your basic lifestyle is one of submission to God through Christ, you need not worry.

Here Jesus seems to connect salvation with forgiveness of sins:

Lk.7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. 49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph.1:7)

“He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.” (Colossians 1:13-14

“And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you.” (Ephesians 4:32)

” . . . bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.” (Colossians 3:13)

“Christian are already saved, past tense: “by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:5,8). The believer is already justified by faith, i.e., declared righteous by God on account of Christ. Thus the apostle Paul speaks of justification as something that has already occurred for the believer: “Therefore, having been justified by faith…much more then, having now been justified by His blood…” (Romans 5:1,9). He cannot be more or less justified, for His legal standing before God depends on the perfect righteousness and sacrifice of Christ. In this sense salvation is a specific, past event, and therefore the Christian can be assured that he is accepted by God.”

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In the first quote, Jesus said, “Your faith has saved you,” not “My forgiveness has saved you.”

In the second quote the Greek word “αφεσις” (aphesis) has been translated as “forgiveness.” True, it sometimes does mean “forgiveness” but, any good Greek lexicon also gives the meaning “release from bondage or imprisonment.” I suggest this is Paul’s intended meaning in this verse:

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the release from sins, according to the riches of His grace.

As for “the riches of His grace,” in Titus 2, Paul speaks of the enabling grace of God that "trains us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, and also that Jesus gave Himself for us “to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works.” So we need to be freed from the bondage of sin.

Here’s another passage in which the word “aphesis” clearly means “release from bondage” and is so translated in most versions:

(Luke 4:18) “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed.

The word is translated here as “set at liberty.” Clearly Jesus didn’t mean “To forgive those who are oppressed.” The oppressed don’t need forgiveness; they need to be set free from oppression.

Jesus said to her:

  1. Thy sins are forgiven.
  2. Thy faith hath saved thee

As i see it, those who are forgiven are saved. To say “Thy sins are forgiven” is much the same as saying - you are saved.

“When we accept Jesus as our Savior, we receive salvation and forgiveness. But that’s not all. The Bible says we also receive justification, redemption, reconciliation, atonement, propitiation, and regeneration. Each of these theological terms expresses wonderful truths about the blessing we receive when Jesus becomes our Savior.”

It seems that “training” is related to the ongoing process of sanctification that the Lord desires throughout the life of a Christian, which is related to passages such as:

Rom.12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phil.2:12 Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure.

2 Pet.3:18a But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

That is different from the past accomplished act of our being already saved:

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

2 Tim.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Jude 1:3a Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eonian life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath eonian life.

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Eph.2:4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Eph.2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

Rom.10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

1 Cor.15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

Origen, “by which also you are saved” suggests an accomplished fact. However the Greek verb is not in a past tense. The verb is a present passive indicative. It ought to be translated as “by which you are being saved,” and that is exactly the way it IS translated in the ESV, the Diaglott, JB2013, LEB, and Young’s Literal Translation.

Salvation is a process—a life-long process!

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Correct. They were being saved by believing the gospel. But they had to be believing (continuous present tense) to maintain this salvation which they already had. Hence the “being saved” to correspond with “be believing”. But none of this denies they were saved yesterday if they believed, or saved today if they believed. In fact the verse confirms that. Which explains why so many translations renders it as the one i posted. The gospel is the power of God to salvation to all who believe it (Rom.1:16).

No one is denying this. Salvation is also a past accomplished event & a present possession to every one that has faith. As the long list of Scripture texts i posted proves.

Some in your long list are irrelevant. There are only two—the ones in Ephesians 2 that indicate that we “have been saved.” (perfect passive participle) Here they are in their context:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved — and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It is my belief, and I think it obvious from the context, that Paul is here referring to Christ’s act concerning our salvation. His act of dying for our benefit was completed on the cross. So in that way, we “have been saved” so that we need not think that any works on our part are of any avail, apart from what Christ did for us. Christ did it all! But to appropriate what Christ did for us, we must avail ourselves through faith of God’s enabling grace, and thereby enter the door of salvation and continue in it throughout our lives. If we turn back, and live for ourselves again, His magnificent sacrifice will not benefit us.

However, it is not the case that we ourselves have been saved. If that were the case, then that condition would be permanent, and we could never be lost again—which, of course, is exactly what the Calvinists teach.

Here’s how Metropolitan Kallistos answered the question, “Are you saved?”

Verse 8 already includes “faith”:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

And this says the Ephesian saints “have been saved” (past tense) by that “faith”. Paul isn’t saying they had faith c. 30 AD when Christ died & rose. Some of them may not even have been existing, conceived, born or alive at that time, let alone having faith.

It doesn’t follow logically that if believers are saved that that must be a permanent condition from which they cannot become lost. There are many verses that have been given by people who argue that a believer can become lost after believing. Many also argue that Satan & demons were once holy angels in heaven before they became lost. It isn’t only Calvinists who believe Christians are saved, but also many other Protestants who also believe such saved believers can thereafter become lost again.

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If they can become lost, then in what sense had they been “saved”? Saved from what? They couldn’t have been saved from hell. For if so, it would be impossible to become lost. For if they became lost and went to hell, then they could not have been saved from hell.

They couldn’t have been saved from sin, or it would not be possible for them to begin living a sinful lifestyle again.

Perhaps the following will help explain my point of view. Law abiding citizens are saved from going to prison. But if they are later found to be law breakers, then they will go to prison.

Likewise those “in Christ” are saved from “hell”. That is, should they at any moment die “in Christ” (in a saved condition), then they would be His & not go to “hell”. But if a Christian yet living then rejects Christ & dies in her sins, then she will be end up in “hell”. For she died in a “lost condition”, not in a “saved condition”(i.e., in Christ).

Therefore Scripture can speak of Christians as saved in the present & past tense, while also warning that they must continue in Christ to maintain that salvation (e.g. Col.1:22-23).

Likewise a law abiding citizen who is saved from going to prison may lose that salvation if he does not continue in his law abiding ways.

Col.1:22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith…

What’s stopping a freshly bathed clean animal who was wallowing in the mud from rolling around in the dirt again after it had been made clean?

Christians are already saved from a sinful life as per:

Tit.3:3 For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Yet they can still reject & make shipwreck of their faith:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

The man to which Paul refers in this quotation was not saved. Paul affirms that he WILL BE saved in the future.

I appreciate your explanations, Origen. But a person who is saved (past tense) in any sense of the word “saved” is saved FROM something. A law-abiding citizen is not “saved from going to prison.” For he could go there anytime that he broke a serious law. Some rich person who had paid off the police with a lot of money, might be saved from going to prison. That is, no matter how he lives his life, he will not go to prison.

Nothing. But that’s a different matter. For the freshly-bathed animal has not been saved from mud and dirt.

Origen and Paidion appear to actually share many positions, and I wonder how much the key here is defining terms differently. I wouldn’t say that a law-abider had been ‘saved’ from prison, because he wasn’t going there in the first place. But I might say that a convert who changed his ways had been ‘saved’ (or rescued) from a life of sin, even though I knew that he could turn toward sin again, and needed to continue to be saved.

Yes, of course. That’s besides the point of that verse being posted.

He is in the sense of being free from prison. Especially if he had been there & then, by virtue of being a law abiding citizen therein, received deliverance (salvation) from prison.

That wouldn’t change the fact that he was previously free &/or delivered from prison.

My example is a hypothetical one & does not have to correspond to the way humans do things, but only to how God does things in respect to believers/unbelievers & hell. Since God does not allow such payoffs with earthly money for people to save themselves from “hell” (except e.g. in the dark ages RCC, perhaps), what you describe is excluded as not being relevant to the topic.

If he has been made free from his dirt by bathing, then he is delivered/saved from his dirt.

My position is, as per my previous post, that saved persons (Christians) are saved from (1) “hell” and (2) a sinful life (among other things i’ve added below).

In support of the second proposition that Christians are saved from a sinful life are the following Scripture passages:

Tit.3:3 For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Cor6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal.5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2 Tim.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph.5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

And In support of the proposition that Christians are saved from “hell” are:

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eonian life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath eonian life.

Compare the 2 passages above with eonian life vs eonian punishment/fire in Mt.25:41,46.

Col.1:22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith…

Luke 23:42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1 Cor.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

Gal.5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Eph.5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Thirdly, Christians (as long as they remain in the faith) are also saved from the “wrath of God” which is on (and coming on) the children of disobedience:

Jn.3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eonian life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
Eph.5;6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Eph.3:3 We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

Because Christians do not walk according to disobedience:

Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Fourth, Christians are saved from darkness:

Eph.5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.