Integral Theology


MM, As I mentioned before, we don’t always move forward. We can move backward as well.
Jer. 7:24 “Yet they did not listen or pay attention; instead they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward not forward.”
This proverb is true: “As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool to his folly.”
And the preacher in Ecclesiastes 1:10-11 says 'Is there anything of which it may be said , “See, this is new”? It has already been in ancient times before us. There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come by those who will come after."
forget the way of the Lord. After being set free from Egypt, how many times did these people return to captivity?
Oftentimes, man conveniently forgets the way of the Lord. Even after Jesus, we read in Revelation how some churches are already stumbling. For example, Rev. 2: 14:15 says “But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.”


No offense taken. Besides, you convinced me that I was wrong! Thanks. :slight_smile:


I agree. When I present my theory, that the Zombie Apocalypse…is the most probable, end-times tribulation model…It is definitely a new and exciting understanding. And it reinforces what you said:

What IS happening is that folks with long believed views and ideas are being challenged by new and exciting understandings.

But I digress. Chad did mention Ken Wilber, as a foundation. And I’m very familiar with him, from my readings - via the Theosophical Society library and bookstore.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”-- Albert Einstein


Many seem to dis Ken Wilber, I would like to say that the first book I read of Ken’s was ‘Grace and Grit: Spirituality and Healing in the Life and Death of Treya Killam Wilber’

I through reading that book was a fan and at least a someone who would look at his work from that point on. Don’t agree with everything, but Ken has some strong ways at looking at things.



I would disagree, Much of the OT Prophetic words were about a people who as you said were obstinate and disobeyed, and much of the NT verbiage was about how they (THEY) needed to figure this stuff out.

That is good but you seem to be not cognitive to the idea that we as gentiles, or maybe you as an Israelite, is blessed by the understanding that Christ did die, and died for the creation. Humanity is yes totally put into a right relationship with God.


Well, I watched evangelist Joel Osteen - this morning. And I went to my Conservative Anglican church, which is part of the ACNA. And this afternoon, I stopped by the Theosophical Society bookstore - called the Quest Bookstore. And on the Christian section, as a book called Intergral Christianity by Rev. Ruel R. Smith.

Well, it got a recommendation by a Roman Catholic priest, Richard Rohr at Contemplation. And it got good overall reviews and ratings - on Amazon. So I have picked it up (with my T.S. members discount) and will read it. I’m sure there are similarities, to the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic doctrine of Theosis. As well as Fr. Richard Rohr’s rendering, of the Wisdom tradition. Both of which, are theological and philosophical tenets I embrace.

It should be an interesting read.


Randy, that you found a book on Integral Christianity in a Theosophical Society bookstore is hardly a ringing endorsement for it, though perhaps an appropriate location for it.

Here is a mention of the Theosopical Society, in Wikipedia’s entry on the New Age movement:

A further major influence on the New Age was the Theosophical Society, an occult group co-founded by the Russian Helena Blavatsky in the late 19th century. In her books Isis Unveiled (1877) and The Secret Doctrine(1888), Blavatsky claimed that her Society was conveying the essence of all world religions….

And another troubling mention, in an entry on Christianity and Theosophy:

American [counter-cult] theologian Walter Martin wrote that Theosophy “ignores completely the true nature, person, and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.” According to Blavatsky, Jesus was the grand “philosopher and moral reformer.” She considered Jesus as “The Great Teacher,” an Avatar with healing and demon-exorcising abilities. “She did not view him as The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, but a Brahman Perfect Master” with clairvoyance, supernatural powers, and “fakir-like unconcern for the morrow.” In Blavatsky’s opinion, “Jesus, the Christ-God, is a myth concocted two centuries after the real Hebrew Jesus died.” According to Theosophy, term “Christ” means the personal divinity “indwelling” each individual human. James Skeen, defending Christianity, stated:

“Theosophy sees Jesus Christ in a docetic way. The Christ Spirit used the body of a holy man named Jesus to heal, work occult wonders, and teach the inherent divinity of all men, within the overall plan of evolution. Christianity sees Jesus Christ as the God-man—The Son of God and the Son of Man. It is called the hypostatic union of Deity and humanness.”

In December 1887 Blavatsky printed in Lucifer an open letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Primate of England. This editorial letter gave proof to show that “in almost every point the doctrines of the churches and the practices of Christians are in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus.” She always opposed those who understood Jesus’ teaching literally. Her represent of Jesus as an equal of Buddha “grated on Christian nerves.” Martin proclaimed that the resurrection of Jesus Christ “and, for that matter, the resurrection of all mankind leave no room for the Theosophical dogma of concurrent reincarnations.” Alexander Men, a Russian Orthodox priest and theologian, stated that the “theosophical pseudo-Christology” became the fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy of false messiahs and false prophets who will come to seduce the world. Also Men noted the “anti-Church and anti-Christian nature” of Theosophy.


Yes, Hermano. I realize that the Theosophical Society, does have an occult/ esoteric foundation to it. And I am a lifetime member. But I am chiefly a member, to utilize their extensive library. As well as discounts on books and guest lecturer presentations. In order to be a member, i just need to be in accordance - with their Three objects:

The three declared Objects of the Theosophical Society:

  • To form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color.

  • To encourage the comparative study of religion, philosophy and science.

  • To investigate unexplained laws of nature and the powers latent in humanity.

But as they also say on their website:

However, they can be interpreted on many levels.

I’m also a card-carrying member, of the Oklevueha Native American Church. Because I’m in accordance with their right, to conduct sacred ceremonies. Which are centuries old and protected by US federal law. And I take the typical CIA style answer. I can neither confirm - nor deny - that I have ever participated in any ceremony - that they run. Nor any sacred medicine, that they use. However, I have hung out with the Two Features Medicine Clan for years, In Crete, Illinois USA. Before they disbanded under the leadership, of Duke Big Feather - after his passing. And they did perform, the same sacred ceremonies. And I will make, the same CIA style - declaration there.

Neither of these actions takes away from the fact…that I am a Christian who believes, in the Orthodox, historical creeds. Centered in the framework of Anglo-Orthodoxy.

And for the record, I’m only reading the book. And I have read books I have liked, but not agree with their philosophy. Like Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand.


Whatever doctrine I hear and study, I try to keep these things at least in mind, from 1 John. These things will remain while lots of speculation just comes and goes.
(I copied this following from a website as the list is more concise than I could put it)

Objective tests:

  1. 1 John 1:5-7 (Walking in the Light)

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

  1. 1 John 1:8-10 (Confession of Sin)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

  1. 1 John 2:3-4 (Obedience)

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

  1. 1 John 2:9-11 (Love for the Brethren)

9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

  1. 1 John 2:15-17 (Hatred for the World)

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever

  1. 1 John 2:24-25 (Perseverance in Doctrine)

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.

  1. 1 John 3:10 (Righteousness)

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,

  1. 1 John 4:13 (Spirit’s Testimony)

13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

  1. Hebrews 12:5-8 (Discipline)

5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons


What do you think the “world” is? I would guess old covenant based on John saying it was passing away.


I’ve always thought of it this way: from BibleStudy Tools:

The ‘world’ that we are supposed to ‘hate’ is not the Earth, or the people in it - it is among other things:

" The Moral World. The moral world includes people indifferent or hostile to God, the God-hostile environment generally, and in the widest sense, corruption and evil summed up under the general term “the world.”

If the people of the world can be spoken of as “the world” in a neutral sense, “the world” can also refer to the subclass of indifferent and hostile people who reject God and his ways. Before the flood nearly all the people of the world became corrupt ( Gen 6:11 ). In Jesus’ time the world hated him ( John 7:7 ) and will hate his followers ( John 15:18-19 ). The world, ungodly people, cannot receive the things of God ( John 14:17 John 14:22 ; 16:8-9 ; cf. 1 John 3:1 ) and is not even worthy of the people of faith who live among them ( Heb 11:38 ).

In the New Testament the world also appears as a hostile environment. Because of the hatred of the world’s people, the Son asks the Father to protect his followers rather than remove them from their alien surroundings ( John 17:14-16 ). Paul expresses his indifference to the world by saying he “is crucified” as far as the world is concerned ( Gal 6:14 ). Seven times in 1 Corinthians 1-3 Paul refers to the world’s ignorance of God and its powerlessness to find him without the cross of Christ.

Because of the world’s hostility to God, it is full of corruption ( 2 Peter 1:4 ) and stands as a symbol of corruption. One cannot be friendly with the evil world and love God at the same time ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15-17 ). Believers by their faith must “overcome the world” ( 1 John 5:4-5 ), killing whatever belongs to their “earthly nature” ( Col 3:5 ) and denying “worldly passions” ( Titus 2:12 )."


Keeping with the OP, here is a quote from Tim King, the once president of presence (creator of the above videos), about the comprehensive grace position. Presence has evolved over the years to where they ate today utilizing new ways of looking at the Idea of God, the bible, and spirituality.

Tim Wrote, ““The impetus of the Comprehensive Grace position is to neither lend credence to the limited salvation of humanity as held by many fundamentalist evangelicals nor to open the door to the religious relativism held by so many teaching universal salvation. Instead, proponents of Comprehensive Grace seek to re-frame the entire issue of salvation by placing it back into its first-century, covenantal setting…
Proponents of Comprehensive Grace are content to leave the judging of individuals to God for he alone has the knowledge of good and evil and he alone understands all that is needed to prepare the way for his holy and righteous love…
For adherents of Comprehensive Grace the message of the greatest story ever told is about inspiring others to know and fall in love with God – not to spend a lifetime trying to avoid the fate of eternal torment. The thrust of scripture is to be compelled by God’s love (2 Cor. 5:14), not religions fear. The call is for the creation to find abundant life by aligning itself with the universal spiritual teachings of the Creator, to find freedom, love and acceptance by living for God in living for the building up of humanity. In essence, the call of those embracing Comprehensive Grace is to bring the world to its knees by being Christ to the world.” (End quote)”



Does that mean we can’t be friends with unbelievers?

What do you think “worldly passions” are?


Well, let me share the BEST answer - from the Yahoo discussion at:

Best Answer: It just means anything you place before God. There is nothing wrong with entertainment, nothing at all. I have the t.v. on at the moment, watching nature shows and thinking how neat it is that God designed such wonderful creatures. : ) I also like music, reading, going to work, spending time with my family, taking walks, etc. All of these things can and should be part of a healthy, balanced life.

If we fixate on any one thing and place it before God, that is when we run into problems. Let’s say I was so fixated on making money that I started working 7 days a week, 15 hours a day and started neglecting everything else in my life because I was so obsessed with wealth. That would be a problem.


And my best reply is that I totally disagree with the Yahoo best answer. :roll_eyes:


Hi MM. What do you think worldly passions are?


Chad, you don’t have a problem with that statement, do you? It sounds like something you would agree with, maybe I’m wrong?


qaz, you will never get past the evangelical mindset that passions means things we love or hold on to in this world in this life at this moment. My advice, ignore the evangelicals. Your comment about covenant was right on, but we have all been beaten to believe the status quo. The problem is one of relativeness, judgment and reality.

The idea of one loving the ‘world’ is a relative statement, and when others ‘judge’ that relative reality, they are putting themselves in God’s shoes, for only God can know the heart. So go with YOUR heart and trust God will guide you. :smiley:


I might have just answered it in my response to qaz

But I might go on to ask, I know you have a love (passion) for guitars and wood and how minute changes in the way you craft an instrument can have an effect on the sound, (I might dare say you may spend a considerable amount of time doing this) I also know you seem to be passionate about your country and your views, and are quit willing to defend them, My point to qaz is that at what point do passions ‘of this world’ intercede with our relationship to God?


The Evangelical mindset…just like the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox mindset…are just different ways of seeing. Same goes for one embracing some philosopher’s mindset (i.e. Aristotle, Kant or Plato)…or some kind of experiential mindset (i.e. Mindfulness, Golden Key, Yoga, Zen, Red Road). The bottom line is how you implement it…and what you do with it.

Speaking of mindsets. The BBC News today, had an interesting article …on the Eagles Hotel California.

Let me quote a bit.

As for the words the pair added, they describe a weary traveller who’s lured into a “lovely place” of grotesque characters: it’s glamorous and creepy and it seems he can never escape.

It’s probably worth bearing in mind Frey’s words: “We decided to create something strange, just to see if we could do it.”

Perhaps the Eagles are seeing into the future, regarding the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse?


Well, anyway. Back to our discussion on mindsets. And in the words of Jerry Seinfeld.