Integral Theology


Davo, I had actually watched some of the other videos from your previous posts and I disagree with Mr. King’s evolutionary perspective. He wants to wrap everything up into some neat little timeline as most evolutionists do. However, I don’t find such things to be true, nor do I see it in the Biblical narrative.We can move forward or backward. All people of all nations did not believe in the same things. There were many different beliefs and practices just as there still are today.
In video three, Dr. King uses the eye for an eye example to support his point. Jesus was not the first person to ever teach not to seek revenge. In fact, Moses says in Lev. 19:18, Do not seek revenge or hold a grudge among any of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself." Again, in Deut. he says, love the stranger. As far as turning the other cheek, Isaac serves as an example to us all in digging the well- Gen.26:18-33.


That is very true, however… Moses was speaking in a context of their own people group (tribe). Jesus appears to have expanded that further to be anyone/everyone around you, if only because your neighbor could have been anyone from a Jew to a Roman to anyone else around the region and we see that clearly when someone asks Jesus “Just who is my neighbor?”.

That said, it is possible Moses intended his message to be more broad, but the way I read it, I believe it was in the context of their own nation. I mean, essentially that is a no-brainer advice if your going to work together as a nation. A divided nation will fall and the Hebrews wanted to continue to exist as a nation, so treat your neighbor well.

I’d also suggest other nations at the time probably had something similar going. In fact, you really can’t have a nation (tribe) without some level of cooperation among it’s members.


Having said all that,

Actually, if you would take a wee bit of time and actually investigate the position, It is Don Beck’s spiral dynamics view of human behavior and Ken Wilber’s idea of integral theory, that are the building blocks of Mr. Kings videos. These are new and exciting ideas much to your obvious non agreement.

Look, LLC, you can cry and stamp your feet and flip the bird all day but the fact is that evolution is happening and has happened. It is God ordained. We as a creation are progressing. Get over it an start to help figure it out. You are very, very smart. Maybe you can be part of the solution as opposed to part of the problem.

Go into investigative mode and see what happens. :smiley:


Much of Christianity is being rapidly absorbed into the New Age philosophy of Conscious Evolution, with helping that along.

A premillennialist / futurist viewpoint on eschatology has expected this apostasy, e.g., 1 Tim. 4:1, But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons; but to me it’s still shocking and disappointing to actually watch it unfold.

Within the charismatic evangelical world, this New Age influence is evidenced in the growing acceptance of dominionism, and “New Apostolic Reformation,” disseminated worldwide through influential groups like Bethel Church in Redding, California.

Here is a futurist perspective on the order of coming world events:

World Crisis—Golden Age of Antichrist—Rapture—Tribulation—Second Coming—Millennial Age

As someone once said, “When your doctrine has more in common with Lucis Trust than it does with the Bible, then you are in trouble.”


How can you be so wrong and not see it, my friend?? It just boggles the mind. You however seem happy with it and since it is a matter of opinion, I respect it and you.


How am I wrong… Explain?

I am waiting?


We’ll take it up in another thread sometime, ok? I"m not sure why I even posted that - I guess the portrayal of those of use who are throwing temper tantrums because we know that evolution, as popularly taught, is a myth. And it is. But I won’t comment on it here, I’ll find an existing thread and add to it.


Ill go ahead and bait you for the significance of this forum…

Evolution is a common and natural occurrence. You have yourself said you have moved from one said position regarding scripture to another. And I agree with you and applaud your doing so. It brought you to where you are now, though that might not be the position you hold in a year or two. The point of the original Integral Theology post was to open peoples minds to the possibility of looking at the bible in a different way.


I am sorry Hermano,

There is no new age voodoo happening here. What IS happening is that folks with long believed views and ideas are being challenged by new and exciting understandings. You yourself may not ascribe to these views, but they are happening none the less… And unfortunately, you need to at least view them as possible positions, or call theme heretics, which in case you have opened a huge can of worms.

Good luck my friend.


Just to be clear… Integral Theology is not about biological evolution, so it isn’t about what is “popularly taught” — it’s track is primarily about our spiritual-cultural-societal evolution in terms of the biblical account/story/narrative.


Got it.


MM, I’m neither crying nor stamping my feet, and I’m definitely not flipping anyone the bird. I simply disagree.

Gabe, Sorry, no offence, but I will have to disagree with you as well with what you say here. In Deut. 10:17-19 Moses says, " For the Lord your God is god of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt." Abraham was befriending the tribes and communities around him, and Joseph was feeding all who came to Egypt during the famine. They knew who the neighbor was.


MM, As I mentioned before, we don’t always move forward. We can move backward as well.
Jer. 7:24 “Yet they did not listen or pay attention; instead they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward not forward.”
This proverb is true: “As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool to his folly.”
And the preacher in Ecclesiastes 1:10-11 says 'Is there anything of which it may be said , “See, this is new”? It has already been in ancient times before us. There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come by those who will come after."
forget the way of the Lord. After being set free from Egypt, how many times did these people return to captivity?
Oftentimes, man conveniently forgets the way of the Lord. Even after Jesus, we read in Revelation how some churches are already stumbling. For example, Rev. 2: 14:15 says “But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.”


No offense taken. Besides, you convinced me that I was wrong! Thanks. :slight_smile:


I agree. When I present my theory, that the Zombie Apocalypse…is the most probable, end-times tribulation model…It is definitely a new and exciting understanding. And it reinforces what you said:

What IS happening is that folks with long believed views and ideas are being challenged by new and exciting understandings.

But I digress. Chad did mention Ken Wilber, as a foundation. And I’m very familiar with him, from my readings - via the Theosophical Society library and bookstore.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”-- Albert Einstein


Many seem to dis Ken Wilber, I would like to say that the first book I read of Ken’s was ‘Grace and Grit: Spirituality and Healing in the Life and Death of Treya Killam Wilber’

I through reading that book was a fan and at least a someone who would look at his work from that point on. Don’t agree with everything, but Ken has some strong ways at looking at things.



I would disagree, Much of the OT Prophetic words were about a people who as you said were obstinate and disobeyed, and much of the NT verbiage was about how they (THEY) needed to figure this stuff out.

That is good but you seem to be not cognitive to the idea that we as gentiles, or maybe you as an Israelite, is blessed by the understanding that Christ did die, and died for the creation. Humanity is yes totally put into a right relationship with God.


Well, I watched evangelist Joel Osteen - this morning. And I went to my Conservative Anglican church, which is part of the ACNA. And this afternoon, I stopped by the Theosophical Society bookstore - called the Quest Bookstore. And on the Christian section, as a book called Intergral Christianity by Rev. Ruel R. Smith.

Well, it got a recommendation by a Roman Catholic priest, Richard Rohr at Contemplation. And it got good overall reviews and ratings - on Amazon. So I have picked it up (with my T.S. members discount) and will read it. I’m sure there are similarities, to the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic doctrine of Theosis. As well as Fr. Richard Rohr’s rendering, of the Wisdom tradition. Both of which, are theological and philosophical tenets I embrace.

It should be an interesting read.


Randy, that you found a book on Integral Christianity in a Theosophical Society bookstore is hardly a ringing endorsement for it, though perhaps an appropriate location for it.

Here is a mention of the Theosopical Society, in Wikipedia’s entry on the New Age movement:

A further major influence on the New Age was the Theosophical Society, an occult group co-founded by the Russian Helena Blavatsky in the late 19th century. In her books Isis Unveiled (1877) and The Secret Doctrine(1888), Blavatsky claimed that her Society was conveying the essence of all world religions….

And another troubling mention, in an entry on Christianity and Theosophy:

American [counter-cult] theologian Walter Martin wrote that Theosophy “ignores completely the true nature, person, and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.” According to Blavatsky, Jesus was the grand “philosopher and moral reformer.” She considered Jesus as “The Great Teacher,” an Avatar with healing and demon-exorcising abilities. “She did not view him as The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, but a Brahman Perfect Master” with clairvoyance, supernatural powers, and “fakir-like unconcern for the morrow.” In Blavatsky’s opinion, “Jesus, the Christ-God, is a myth concocted two centuries after the real Hebrew Jesus died.” According to Theosophy, term “Christ” means the personal divinity “indwelling” each individual human. James Skeen, defending Christianity, stated:

“Theosophy sees Jesus Christ in a docetic way. The Christ Spirit used the body of a holy man named Jesus to heal, work occult wonders, and teach the inherent divinity of all men, within the overall plan of evolution. Christianity sees Jesus Christ as the God-man—The Son of God and the Son of Man. It is called the hypostatic union of Deity and humanness.”

In December 1887 Blavatsky printed in Lucifer an open letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Primate of England. This editorial letter gave proof to show that “in almost every point the doctrines of the churches and the practices of Christians are in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus.” She always opposed those who understood Jesus’ teaching literally. Her represent of Jesus as an equal of Buddha “grated on Christian nerves.” Martin proclaimed that the resurrection of Jesus Christ “and, for that matter, the resurrection of all mankind leave no room for the Theosophical dogma of concurrent reincarnations.” Alexander Men, a Russian Orthodox priest and theologian, stated that the “theosophical pseudo-Christology” became the fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy of false messiahs and false prophets who will come to seduce the world. Also Men noted the “anti-Church and anti-Christian nature” of Theosophy.


Yes, Hermano. I realize that the Theosophical Society, does have an occult/ esoteric foundation to it. And I am a lifetime member. But I am chiefly a member, to utilize their extensive library. As well as discounts on books and guest lecturer presentations. In order to be a member, i just need to be in accordance - with their Three objects:

The three declared Objects of the Theosophical Society:

  • To form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color.

  • To encourage the comparative study of religion, philosophy and science.

  • To investigate unexplained laws of nature and the powers latent in humanity.

But as they also say on their website:

However, they can be interpreted on many levels.

I’m also a card-carrying member, of the Oklevueha Native American Church. Because I’m in accordance with their right, to conduct sacred ceremonies. Which are centuries old and protected by US federal law. And I take the typical CIA style answer. I can neither confirm - nor deny - that I have ever participated in any ceremony - that they run. Nor any sacred medicine, that they use. However, I have hung out with the Two Features Medicine Clan for years, In Crete, Illinois USA. Before they disbanded under the leadership, of Duke Big Feather - after his passing. And they did perform, the same sacred ceremonies. And I will make, the same CIA style - declaration there.

Neither of these actions takes away from the fact…that I am a Christian who believes, in the Orthodox, historical creeds. Centered in the framework of Anglo-Orthodoxy.

And for the record, I’m only reading the book. And I have read books I have liked, but not agree with their philosophy. Like Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand.