The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Intro to the Presence Movement by Tim King


LLC, given you… “agree with most of what Tim King has to say” then please check again the ‘already / not yet’ proposition in the segment — ‘too much tension’ — around the 7min 20sec+ mark for a complete understanding on this.


Hey LLC, I’m interested in your take…Explain.



Davo, Unless I’m misunderstanding something, I part views with Mr. King when he says that the “new” covenant didn’t exist prior to 70 AD. To me, there has only ever been ONE covenant that came from God. We may refer to it as the new covenant, but it has been in existence since man was created, and there have always been people who understood and testified of it. Abraham was NOT teaching the Levitical law as the way of life. He was teaching the “new” covenant as the way of God. The Levitical law didn’t even exist yet. During the Exodus, Israel was leaving behind the false gods of the Egyptians to return to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the “new” covenant which was what Moses was preaching and teaching, the same as Jesus. The Levitical law did NOT come from Moses as reported in the Bible, but many of these laws were the result of those who “returned to Egypt” .In other words, they brought the ways of their false gods with them as in the story Rachel who took Laban’s idols with her when she left her father’s house. Jesus even warns of this saying that many will come in His name preaching false things, just as they did with Moses.

MM, the power of the Pharisees and Sadducees may have been greatly reduced in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. However, they returned in the form of the Roman Catholic Church as Luke 11:24-26 indicates. As in the Exodus, there are those who don’t want to leave their false gods behind. Jesus says this in the parable of the sower and the seed: “Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their heart lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for awhile and in time of temptation fall away. And the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.”


Well ok yes, you misunderstanding plenty. TK didn’t say as you said. The new covenant came into its fullness by AD70.


Davo, What do you mean by the new covenant coming into it’s fullness by 70AD?
King says in segment 16:50 that what was passing away was not the new covenant world, that was just coming into existence. It was the old covenant world.

The new covenant world was not “just coming into existence”. Abraham was living the new covenant world.


I’m NOT getting into that with you again LLC as I already know your position. I was simply correcting the blatant error in your statement about TK… that’s all.


Well, let’s add a bit of history. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches were one, until 1054 AD or so. Then Orthodoxy continued to pass down, stuff that’s theologically unchanged. Then the Roman Church went off and developed doctrines, like the pope, is the ruler for all Christianity, has infallibility, etc.

While the Orthodox, pretty much stuck to

And as an aside. The famous Evangelical Wheaton College, has set up a Partistics department.

Just for that, LLC…I’m leading my zombie friends your way…just so you can hear them imitate, the Three Stooges.


Randy, why do you always post off topic stuff in other people’s threads?


It’s on topic, gaz. LLC made a statement. Where you jump from Leviticus to the Roman Catholic church. But much has happened since that time, the RC church was formed…which I have filled in. What happens between Leviticus and the RC church formation. Which LLC would need, to provide an explanation for.

Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t."-- Pete Seeger


As Hebrews 5:8 says, “Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered.” Maybe He learned through experience what the fine print meant.


That is interesting… But the bottom line is that the powers you speak of is man’s want to take control and not to give, the very power that plagued Adam and continues now.

But the covenantal change that happened with Christ is that God foresaw and recognized that part of man. God did what he needed to do to facilitate the reconciliation between Himself and mankind.

Your view of the Roman Church is well founded in respect that ALL denominations are looking to gain control. They all put forth views that they are trying to help mankind in some way, but in fact they are trying to convert through control.

I understand this. Where do we go from here?:roll_eyes:


Well, I look at it - in motorcycle gang terms. And recently, I’m asking to go from a hangout - with the Eastern Orthodox OCA…to becoming a Prospect…and eventually, a patched-in member.

Here’s my email today, to the Club President (AKA chief priest)

This email is to request an appointment to become Orthodox. Decades
ago, I met a friend of mine. And he introduced me to his friends. He
said “there are no saints here”. NOT that he - nor they - did anything
illegal, immoral or fattening, mind you. But I start with that
statement: “There are no saints here”. However, I also add this
statement. “Through Christ, I am a work in process”.

Well, I have had about 3 decades of “dialogue” (a Roman Catholic term),
with a lifelong, Greek Orthodox friend. Who is well educated. With a
masters, from the University of Chicago and a PhD from Oxford. And
I’ve been introduced to Orthodoxy. And been in Russian and Greek
Orthodox churches. However, I’m neither Greek nor Russian. So these
met little to me. And I haven’t found an American flavor - until now.
Now I have been having dialogues, with Deacon LLL and Fr.
JJJ. And this is the formal process here, for becoming Orthodox.

Well, I can no longer be Protestant. With 34 K church denominations and
counting. Each with their scholars and theologians. They can’t ALL be

Nor can I take the Catholic, fork in the road after 1054. I can’t buy
into one church leader, who is “infallible”

And I was brought up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And
attended grade school there. So I came to believe, in the real presence.

Which leaves Orthodoxy, as the true and original - historical church.
However, I still have conservative RC and Protestant friends. And want
to remain, on good terms with them.

Anyway, I’m retired now. But I usually work out - Monday - Friday (1 -
3 PM) - at the health club. So I’m saying my time is very flexible, to
work about your schedule for meeting.

I was very impressed, with your knowledge and spiritual depth - during
our recent Q and A.

Can we take this, to the next level - via an initial meeting? Thanks in

Please give me some dates and times, that work for you. Then I’ll pick
one and run with it. Thanks.


Anyway, I came across this article today…It’s in the Patheos, Catholic newsletter:

Let me quote a bit - with brief commentary:

Then there was my family’s mounting frustration with our former parish priest, an authoritarian individual who seemed utterly unaware of the basics of theology, but instead pulled deranged scripture exegesis out of thin air, while also treating his congregation as though we were village idiots desperately in need of his enlightenment. We finally had enough, left the parish, and have been the proverbial “roaming catholics” ever since.

Wow! I’m glad I’ve never run into him!

Then, of course, the sex abuse scandal broke, and it wasn’t just the horror of the details: it was that they clearly hadn’t learned from the last go-around. And, to judge from the behavior of many bishops, are still refusing to learn. In the months since we first heard of the Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report, so many of my friends have left the church, and I can’t blame them. And many of us who remain, meanwhile, are asking ourselves: how can we stay, without being complicit?

Like, yes. That’s a BIG issue for me also!

Drifted? No, more like set sail and caught the biggest wind – pulled out the oars and rowed for their lives. This is especially true for victims of abuse themselves. Why would they want to come back into churches, places where the worst memories of their lives might be triggered? Especially since church leaders seem to be regarding the abuses within their own institution with either bureaucratic lethargy, or maniacal scapegoating. We’re not seeing a lot of responsibility. We’re not seeing much that looks like genuine penance – though we, the people who didn’t do the bad thing, keep being told we should pray more, repent more, or be more sexually virtuous, because somehow we’re the ones who made the bad thing happen? We may have done other bad things, but this one can’t be mixed into a great messy cauldron of “well, we’re all sinners” stew.

Well, it doesn’t invite me to become Catholic.

However, I did add this PS to a friend. Regarding me taking the steps, to become Orthodox:

Just a PS here. That doesn’t mean that God., doesn’t work outside the
Orthodox church. I believe God works through the Roman Catholic saints,
holy places, relics, and sacraments. As well as things like Native
American ceremonies, medicine, and holy people. And traditions like
Johrei, Sukyo Mahikari, and Heartfulness. It just finds its highest
fulfillment, in the Orthodox church.


This came today, from RC Fr. Richard Rohr of CAC. And I feel Christ is the TRUE source, behind all the spiritual Light ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) traditions:

The Universal Christ

The Inner Blueprint
Tuesday, December 4, 2018

Let’s begin in the beginning with the prologue to John’s Gospel (John 1:1-11). John is not talking about Jesus; he’s referring to Christ. I’m going to give you my own translation, which I think is a fair one. Instead of “Word,” which is taken from Greek philosophy’s Logos , I’m going to substitute the word “Blueprint,” because it’s really the same meaning. Logos is the inner blueprint.

In the beginning was the Blueprint, and the Blueprint was with God, and the Blueprint was God. . . . And all things came to be through this inner plan. The inner reality of God became manifest in the outer world as the Cosmic or Eternal Christ.

No one thing came to be except through this Blueprint and plan. All that came to be had life in him. Now it’s become personalized. This great Universal Christ Mystery since the beginning of time now becomes specific in the body and the person of Jesus of Nazareth. The Blueprint has become personified and visible as a human being. (The particular gender is not significant here.)

And that Life was the Light of humanity. John is describing a bigger life, a bigger light, from which we all draw. This is Consciousness—a pre-existent form that is the Eternal or One Light. This great Light or Consciousness is the source of our little piece of light, as it were. You can also substitute the word Love. The Blueprint is a cosmic act of Love.

This Light/Life/Love shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it. “The visible galaxies we see strewn across space are nothing more than strings of luminous flotsam drifting on an invisible sea of dark matter,” writes astrophysicist Adam Frank. [1] Franciscan Sister Ilia Delio explains: “Scientists speculate that dark energy comprises about 73 percent of the total mass-energy of the universe and accelerates expansion of the universe.” [2] Somehow the universe is an interplay between light and darkness.

This Blueprint was the true light that enlightens all human beings who have come into the world. So, the true light, Consciousness, or Love itself precedes and connects and feeds all of our smaller lights and attractions.

He was in the world that had its very being through him. But the world did not know him . In the same way, for the last 2,000 years, we have not understood the Cosmic Christ. We fell in love with the symbol instead of what Jesus fully represented. To love “Jesus, the Christ” is to love both the symbol and everything that he stands for—which is precisely everything. This lays a wonderful foundation for a new consciousness and a new cosmology—and a very different notion of religion itself.


Some interesting concepts in that! I’m particularly simpatico with the ‘blueprint’ motif.


A female Catholic friend of mind…with a PhD in psychology from Northwestern University…shared this with me today:

Randy…Regarding your reflection on Rohr’s meditation for today…This newest series of Rohr’s meditations beginning with this one, is introducing a vocabulary consistent with an enlarged understanding of that within which we are embedded. The words used are a matter of scale, and build upon an evolving, enlightened view of “material reality.” Our intimate relationship with all that exists and “how it works” at both ends of scale in God’s creation, still remains an ineffable Mystery beyond our comprehension. However, just as we mature throughout a lifetime in our understanding of “Love,” the time has come for peering more deeply into the Blueprint presented in Scriptures and the visionary writings of our ancient ancestors. Rohr offers a vocabulary for gradually connecting the dots between the micro and macro, the seen and unseen, our experiences and our intuitions. The verse to follow “I once was blind, but now I see” is in readiness for all who have heard, but now are listening…May these Holy Days be peaceful and nurturing along the way toward your final commitment and initiation🙏

“It’s been my experience that you can nearly always enjoy things if you make up your mind firmly that you will.”-- L.M. Montgomery

Well, anyway. I met with the head, Eastern Orthodox OCA priest. Since I have about 3 decades of dialogue…with a lifelong Greek Orthodox Christian…who has her masters, from the University of Chicago…and her PhD from Oxford…he will appoint the young priest, to start a course of instruction…and to fill in the blanks…it’s still my intention, to also complete the Catholic RCIA program. So I have a better understanding, of the Catholic side of things.

As far as the EO fasts go - see:

Why are Seventh Day Adventists vegetarians?

Actually, the fasts can hold some health benefits. As the Seventh Day Adventists attest to. In addition to the spiritual reasons of Orthodoxy.


What is most interesting, is that the PRESENCE understanding is both integral and interfaith, and I would be interested in your view.


I meant this for you Randy, you seem to bounce between orthodoxy and other belief systems. Please understand that I agree with you but just wondering if you have taken the time to examine the Presence position.



I figured you met me, Chad. I haven’t had time, to look into it. My position on Orthodoxy and other positions, has been shared here - via this thread. Let me expand it, to include Protestantism.

That doesn’t mean that God., doesn’t work outside the
Orthodox church. I believe God works through the Roman Catholic saints,
holy places, relics, and sacraments. The mainstream Protestant churches. As well as things like Native
American ceremonies, medicine, and holy people. And traditions like
Johrei, Sukyo Mahikari, and Heartfulness. It just finds its highest
fulfillment, in the Orthodox church.

Or covered in more detail, in my Inclusivism (1,2,3,4) links.

Much of my spiritual journey is this…What can I EXPERIENCE, by hanging out in Native American ceremonies, Johrei, Sukyo Mahikari, Heartfulness, etc. Or EVEN experience in the EO Divine Liturgy. And bring that experience or experiences, back into the Eastern Orthodox framework - for understanding.

RIght now, I’m going through the catechumen process for Eastern Orthodoxy. And the RCIA process for Roman Catholicism.