The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is accepting Jesus a sufficient condition of being saved?

Again, I never said he would lose his salvation; being saved is a necessary condition of accepting Jesus. But note that according to 1 Corinthians 3:15, something more must occur, and that something more involves fire. Thus, more than accepting Jesus is required in some cases to be saved.

I think the narrative of 1 Corinthians 3 makes it likely that the fire represents something about judgment and purification. Consider especially 1 Corinthians 3: 9-15.

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

As we can see from this passage, each person is metaphorically a building, which will be judged on the day. But some persons, i.e., buildings, are flawed. Something of them must be changed and that change will be accomplished by testing with fire. They will thus suffer a loss, but a beneficial loss, in that by fire, these people will be saved.

… as many as received Him, to those who believe in His name, to them He gave the authority to become children of God. (John 1:12)

Those who received Him (or accepted Him) were given the authority to BECOME the children of God. The were not the children of God immediately upon accepting Him. Thuse accepting Him is not a sufficient condition.

Good point. Thanks for contributing another relevant verse.

“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

As we can see from this passage, each person is metaphorically a building, which will be judged on the day. But some persons, i.e., buildings, are flawed. Something of them must be changed and that change will be accomplished by testing with fire. They will thus suffer a loss, but a beneficial loss, in that by fire, these people will be saved.

lancia

Posts: 65
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 11:51 am

An interesting possibility, as i never gave this much thought. At the great white throne judgment it sounds like only the unsaved enter the lake of fire. Any thoughts on this?

An interesting possibility, as i never gave this much thought. At the great white throne judgment it sounds like only the unsaved enter the lake of fire. Any thoughts on this?

steve7150

Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:01 am

Top
Print view this post

I was thinking about my own question and maybe having ones name in the Book of Life is slightly different then “being saved.” Maybe being saved is a process and the completion is having your name in the Book of Life. So perhaps the process of being saved may start in the LOF and culminate in the Book of Life. So far not a lot of evidence but it’s possible.

I think the kings of the earth mentioned in Revelation may be such individuals who start the process of being saved in the LOF. Here is a link to a post in which I explore this idea.

[Is the term Kings of the Earth an Idiom?)

Lancia,

I think that scripture is fairly clear that it is our sin, and the death to which it leads, from which we are saved. We were in bondage to sin, but now we’re not, if we have confessed with our mouths/believed in our hearts, been baptized, or whatever your favorite flavor of salvation ritual may be. I think the thing is to recognize that we’re free. So the salvation (the authority to become the sons of God) is there for anyone who believes it’s there through the Name. If you don’t believe it’s there, then for you, it may as well not be there – until you do believe.

So . . . we are saved.

But, we are also BEING saved. It takes a long time for a slave to become free. A woman freed from literal chains of sexual slavery may take many years to recover her virtuous ways of thinking and being, to recover the lost image of purity in her own heart, her sense of her own worthiness and beauty and value. In the mean time, she may voluntarily enslave herself in many ways, including sexually. She is physically free to do as she will, but her psyche is still enslaved in so many ways. It’s easy to sympathize with the lady in question (in theory at least), but harder to sympathize with the man who just can’t seem to conquer his anger. The anger has been conquered in Christ, we say, yet this man continues to yield his members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin (as Paul said). It will also take him time to apprehend and build on that freedom that Christ so dearly purchased for him. We ALL need to apprehend this freedom from sin, for even though we are free, sin (if we choose to continue in it) still leads to death. The death spoken of here obviously must refer mostly to spiritual death, since even the most pure amongst us still die physically.

And that leads to the third aspect of salvation --> the adoption of our bodies through the resurrection. Our physical bodies must be renewed and transformed; must die as a seed planted in the ground, in order to give birth to our spiritual bodies (which are still BODIES, according to Paul.) This happens at the resurrection, however that looks.

I think that Paul’s “yet as through fire” and Jesus’ “you will all be sprinkled with fire” can happen now in this life or later in a life to come. This is the final purification of the believer, not necessarily the lake of fire, but the polishing of fire (as it were) for those who are already mostly ready – or at least somewhat advanced along the road. Everyone will travel that road with the help of the Good Shepherd, but some come sooner, some later. All need the freedom from sin that Christ bought for us through His death to this world, to sin, for the sake of Adam’s children. That having been said, all also need to make that journey from the place at which we are when we first believe to the place of blessedness, our forever home. For some, maybe it will be through a metaphorical “lake of fire” (and I think some of us have swum a few laps through that already) or maybe through a sprinkling of fire, but we all will approach the consuming fire who is our God. The question of intensity probably has something to do with the quantity and nature of the things left in us that can and must be consumed, and also, with our determination to hold on to and protect those things from the fire, or with the wiser inclination we ought to have, to present willingly ALL the chaff to be burned away.

That’s salvation, in my understanding – which is, I know, incomplete. Great topic, Lancia!

Cindy,

What a great post! And I hope that’s the way things are.

Thanks, Lancia

I hope so too (at least in principle), but that said, I don’t think it’s possible for us to conceive a better or more loving plan that God’s true plan. And while I’m sure I’m mistaken on many of my ideas, I firmly trust that my mistakes lie on the side of believing God to be less, rather than MORE loving and generous, wise and kind and good than He truly is. :slight_smile:

I don’t think that’s a particularly bad way of summing it up, Cindy. The Bible does talk about salvation in all three tenses; past, present and future. What each of these entail is an important discussion point but there does tend to be an emphasis within Christianity of salvation mainly being about the future - being saved from hell.

I would agree that “the day” fits with ‘judgement day’ however seeing it as a past event pertinent to the end of the old covenant age… something that was in process from the Cross to the Coming destructing – the “40yr” period AD30-70.

The following texts being the backdrop of 1Cor 3:13-15.

Mt 10:32, 40-42 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. … “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”

The “rewards” for doing as Jesus did and greater (Jn 12:12) would be realised on “the day”… that day did not require biological death i.e., post mortem for this to be a reality, as this text indicates…

Mt 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall NOT taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

According to Jesus some of his audience would survive into the coming new age having seen “the Day of the Lord” as a past event, that is, they would “NOT taste death” before they saw “the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”, i.e., AD70.

think the kings of the earth mentioned in Revelation may be such individuals who start the process of being saved in the LOF. Here is a link to a post in which I explore this idea.

Yes without a doubt those kings of the earth are resurrected kings and generally in the OT most kings were evil so that again is a point i never thought of. I think in Revelation there are about 278 references and allusions to the OT so no doubt the kings of the earth is one of these allusions. Great points plus the ladies of the evening analogy fits well.
I like the idea about believers in the process of salvation may go through fire, as it makes sense and solves issues of justice.

Ultimately we are saved for eternal existence with God but saved perhaps from many things on the way.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The fear of death it would seem plays a role in our bondage to sin. We usually think the cause of death is our sin, and whilst this may be true to a point it would seem death is painted as being a tool of the devil, the power of which was broken by the death and Ressurection of Jesus.This all seems slightly mystical. But when we speak of being saved, it involves a process - not in order to arrive at a suitable condition to qualify for salvation, but because we have been saved a process of disentangling us from sin is involved; ultimately though not achieved until as Paul has stated in the 1Corinthians 15 not until death is swallowed up in victory.

Just a thought

Here’s a link to one of Richards articles on Experimental Theology along these lines. Don’t necessarily have to take the whole thing on board but some interesting points. Probably have to copy and paste link as I couldn’t get t it to work from my ipad.

experimentaltheology.blogspot.co … art-9.html

Cheers S

Yes sturmy I believe you are right… I have further thoughts on how this plays out HERE, HERE and HERE. :stuck_out_tongue:

In light of the question at hand, how do you all understand the following verses -

NB: All quotes from the ESV:

John 3:14 - “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”

John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever *believes *in him should not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:18 - "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.’

John 3:36 - “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Of course, we have to consider a number of things, including context, but reading these verses as they stand, can give one the impression that not believing in Jesus Christ leads to condemnation, while belief leads to eternal life. And, that’s the way the Gospel is presented by some groups. So, again, what do you all understand these verses to mean, particularly in light of the thread title and question herein.

**

In addition to my post above, I would just like to add that I am a bit uncertain about the relationship between belief in Jesus, and being rescued or “saved” from sin. I say this, because, I have been reading a lot lately about the lives of both theists (of various religions backgrounds), and atheists, who seem to have overcome previous life controlling addictions (that many believers in Jesus are still struggling to overcome), and, who have a genuine, active, self-sacrificial love for other human beings. I’ve also been surprised by the effectiveness of tools/insight provided by psychology, and other fields, in helping others overcome things like sexual addictions and anger (to use Cindy’s examples).

It seems as though people of all religions, or no religion at all, are being “saved” from sin, and, that there are many different tools, and belief systems, that can bring about real heart transformation (not simply external behavioral modification). I’m not saying we don’t need Jesus to be “saved” from our sin, but rather, that it doesn’t appear to me that being rescued from the dominion/power/stranglehold of sin is limited to a belief in Jesus Christ. I guess I am just a bit confused. :confused:

John 3:36 - “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Of course, we have to consider a number of things, including context, but reading these verses as they stand, can give one the impression that not believing in Jesus Christ leads to condemnation, while belief leads to eternal life. And, that’s the way the Gospel is presented by some groups. So, again, what do you all understand these verses to mean, particularly in light of the thread title and question herein.

This thread was not contradicting these verses but making the point that the road to true salvation is a process whereas even a believer will have to be purified by fire of some kind in this life and possibly the next. It starts by accepting Jesus but doesn’t end there as we are still human with all it’s flaws. We will be transformed into the image of Jesus through some kind of process.

It seems as though people of all religions, or no religion at all, are being “saved” from sin, and, that there are many different tools, and belief systems, that can bring about real heart transformation (not simply external behavioral modification). I’m not saying we don’t need Jesus to be “saved” from our sin, but rather, that it doesn’t appear to me that being rescued from the dominion/power/stranglehold of sin is limited to a belief in Jesus Christ. I guess I am just a bit confused. :confused:

In John it says Jesus died for the sins of the world and in John 1.9 it says the true light (Jesus) has come to every man so humans are not incapable of doing good works. IMHO these folks benefit from having a certain amount of light in their hearts and benefit unknowingly. If i had to take a trip of 100 miles in a day i may be able to walk on my own for 15 miles but at some point i would need help, and Jesus is that help.

Yes, that’s the view I was trying to present in this thread. Thanks for expressing it so succinctly.

Some other verses indicating believers experience fire,

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance , but He that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes i am not worthy to bear. He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE.” Matt 3.11

“That the trial of your faith being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried in the FIRE, might be found unto praise” 1 Pet 1.7

“Beloved think it not strange concerning the FIERY trial which is to try you as though some strange thing happened unto you” 1 Peter 4.12

The word for “fire” in these verses is “pur” the same greek word used in the Lake of Fire and for God being described as a consuming FIRE in Heb 12.29.

Of course in 1st Cor 15 it says in the end God (Consuming fire) will be “all in all.”