The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is accepting Jesus a sufficient condition of being saved?

There’s a further factor, too, in shucking off those chains – one which I’ll be illustrating in one of the climactic scenes of SoJ, by the way. :wink:

So long as we pridefully insist on doing it ourselves, without any help, it doesn’t matter if we get one set of chains off: we’ve only enchained ourselves worse. (Lewis extrapolated this from MacD’s chain metaphor somewhere, though I don’t recall which book(s) Lewis did it in. Eustace’s dragon-peeling is related to that but not exactly the same thing.)

Very good point, Jason. Thanks! :smiley:

Jason what does SoJ mean? :question:
Cindy, I picture Wesly’s hymn " my chains fell of my heart was free I rose went forth and followed thee". Simple! (Tich) As per the meerkat add on the telly. If it’s not an add on US tv I will explain that it is a play on the word market with a puppet meerkat attempting to make it seem his sales pitch is simple which of course like most things it is not. ie read the small print! IMO the matter of losing the chains is a lifelong issue and it involves the continual provision of grace hence my by line below. The gift of righteousness (Jesus) busts the lock. Perhaps I am oversimplifying what this passage says but I do like the notion that we don’t even notice the chains. Terry Virgo of “New Frontiers” likens it to a soldier who is leaves the army. He still feels he should salute the officer as he walks out the gate but just remembers and says “so long captain see ya around.” This connects to the idea of no longer being a slave to sin. :sunglasses:

ChrisB - I think SoJ means “Song of Justice” if my memory serves me well.

It seems to me that many, if not most of us, die prematurely in this process. This is particularly worrying to me if this life is all we have. The people who mean the most to me are bound by these chains, and even if they were to live a reasonably long life, I have no hope that they will even begin the process of disentangling themselves from sin… unless, of course, there is some radical pauline-like intervention by God. It is because of this I dread the notion that this life is all that we have, and that we must fully repent of all of our sins before the clock strikes 12. That is just not happening.

Personally witnessing the people whom I love suffering the devastating consequences of their sin is gut-wrenching. I loathe the thought that they will then face eternal torture when they die, and I fail to see the purpose of life if this is the case. Of course, none of this is what you were asserting, but, I write this in contemplation of the belief some hold that we must lose these chains before death meets us.

Also, Jason, re: Eustace dragon-peeling and trying to shuck off our chains ourselves…

At the Calvinist church I was previously affiliated with, there was strong preaching on the doctrine of regeneration and the need to be born-again - which was described as this big event where upon believing the Gospel, God puts His Spirit within the believer, who is immediately set free from the power of sin, and given a new heart of flesh that desires to please God, and keep His commandments. In this circle, a person was not considered “saved” until s/he had this miraculous conversion experience, evidenced by a changed life, particularly love for God, and freedom from previous entanglements with sin.

The impact this had on me, was that I prayed almost every day for quite a few years for this “conversion experience” so that I would be free from the chains of my sin. Of course, nothing happened. Today, I sit back and think - man, this makes no sense, I am responsible for my own choices and actions, and I am the only one who has the power to change my life. I can’t just sit around waiting for God to change me. I have found this mind-set (primarily in taking responsibility for my actions) to be more effective in actually helping me to make right choices. My attitude is more like - sin is hurting other people, and it is hurting myself. I hate that I am causing others and myself pain. I am responsible for the choices I make. I want to make things right. Therefore, I will make things right.

I don’t think it makes any sense to continue praying and waiting around for God to change things in my life that I am fully capable of changing. Also, given that I do not yet have any particular belief in Jesus, it is difficult to depend on/trust in this Jesus for help. It’s not that I think I can set myself free from all sin on my own. But, whatever I think I can do, I think I should do. Do you think this is dragon-peeling and that it doesn’t matter if I shuck off some chains on my own? --not being rude here. This is a legit question.

Wow! What a mixture of Calvanistic crap and Arminian nonsense all mixed up together! Sorry to be blunt. I get really upset that people imbibe this junk from the churches they go to. It’s one of the problems of church hopping. One can pick up bad stuff and add it to previously imbibed bad stuff and get, well, stuffed. :unamused: So much that as Paul says, sounds Godly but is of the flesh and profits nothing. Jesus has it covered mate so relax and stop fretting or leaping about to some jerks tune who happens to have a mic in his hand. Sorry again about the rhetoric I’ll go and have a glass of cold water and cool off!

ChrisB - I’m no longer at these churches, thankfully. I guess my first post was more about me venting my frustrations over certain belief systems. The second post was… well a legit question to Jason for clarification on what he meant in a previous post.

Yep. :slight_smile:

It’s still gut-wrenching to me, even when I have ultimate hope for them. The more I love someone the more gut-wrenching it is to me, even if morally they’re doing pretty well but are currently being deprived of Christian belief!

But of course how much moreso does the gut wrench when hopelessness is factored in. :cry: I certainly don’t want to decry that (so to speak).

I’ll have to get back with you a little later on your next post; busy at ‘work’ work this morning.

Well obviously I was talking a lot about human responsibility, too. The key point in what I was warning about wasn’t human responsibility in cooperation, but trying to do it ourselves without any help. That isn’t cooperative responsibility.

Oh, certainly, it wouldn’t make sense to look for help from something you can’t quite or don’t believe exists! That isn’t pridefully trying to do it without any help. The attitude involved (I mean the attitude I was warning about, not your attitude) is the problem, not a question of belief about facts.

Certainly, yes, that isn’t useless dragon-peeling. :slight_smile:

The wrong attitude would be something like, “Go away, Jian, I resent you trying to help me, I’m going to do this myself without you, me me me me me.” :wink: That goes waaaaay beyond taking personal responsibility, and striving for personal growth in strength and capabilities, into uncooperation.

Remember how CoJ ends: “I had been given my opportunities even to fight, to make my contributions. Given opportunities, given gifts – given everything. And I still wanted to take. …] Was I grateful? Did I receive my new opportunities, acting upon them? No. I was resentful. And I took those new opportunities, acting upon them. And that makes all the difference.”

Which is also Israel’s story in a nutshell: even when they aren’t resentful for their given opportunities, they still have a bad habit of wanting to take those opportunities instead of receiving them. And that makes all the difference in how they (and we, where Israel represents all of us) act upon those opportunities.

(Relatedly, it is by no accident at all that I named “Portunista” a name-form variation of Spanish ‘opportunista’, opportunist. She has to learn to be a good opportunist instead of a bad one. :ugeek: )

Note: I’ve ported the subsequent CoJ discussion posts over to the CoJ discussion thread, starting here. :slight_smile: