Here’s a link to a site that might help you. Basic Bulletin Board Codes . Not all of the tags they show will work on our forum, but the basic stuff does work. 
Here is an article from J Preston Eby on why he thinks man is not a free moral agent. I’d like to hear thoughts on this, as it bears heavily on how we approach a variety of topics related to this thread:
Singularly unconvincing. IMHO, of course. The presentation and ‘argument’ - atrocious.
For a convincing counter-argument, this: maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/ … rsion.html
Or this: maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/ … -will.html
I know, nobody follows links - but answering a link with a link is fair, I hope. 
He created us liable to sin and knowing that we would sin. My only point was that when God “creates evil” He is not sinning; I’m not suggesting that when man does evil HE’S not sinning.
Steve C.
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:25 pm
Exactly right on Steve C. Just look at how Eve reacted to Satan’s persuasion, she loved it. Her eyes,flesh and heart all responded positively to the idea of disobeying God. She was made either innocent or perhaps rebellious.
According to Jesus “lustfullness” in the heart is already sin and Eve had this in her.
Really, I think Eve and Adam represent sufficiently evolved human beings for God to be able to awaken them to consciousness, to awaken or imbue them with His spirit – to lift them to a place where they could at least make some kind of choice based on His communication with them. Rather than choosing to trust Him, they chose to rely on their own instincts, the knowledge of good and evil, so to speak. THEY themselves knew what was right and what was wrong and certainly needed no god to tell them. They could be good, moral people without recourse to a deity. Know anyone who feels this way? It DOES appeal to the flesh. My grandfather died at the ate of 89 still professing this (last I saw him). The idea of doing it himself appealed to his pride just as it appeals to all of us. We want to do be our own moral arbiters. We don’ need no stinkin’ GOD to teach us how to live right.
That said, though Adam and Eve no doubt had the instincts of the beast nature, I do think they were innocent. It isn’t somehow wrong for a beast to be a beast. Sure they had the inclination toward that nature. I choose to think that God had also given them (or Adam at the least, for it was to Adam He first spoke) more than sufficient reason to turn from that nature and trust Him instead. BTW, we tend to blame Eve, but Paul blames Adam in a sense, in saying that Adam at least was NOT deceived. He was with Eve when she partook (she gave to her husband with her). Did he resist? Nope. And he understood; he was not deceived. Instead of making any attempt to rebuke or check his companion, he just stood there and watched her being duped, watched her eat (whatever that looked like) and apparently said nothing until she offered him some.
I think this was the next step in the elevation of the human race and we weren’t ready to eat from THAT tree – the Tree of Life that God gives. God gave us a chance. We had a choice – a real choice. Maybe He knew what we’d choose; maybe He didn’t – maybe He chose not to look at that choice until we made it, so as to allow it to be a real choice. You know, if you look at a quantum wave (or even if you’re going to look at it) you change it. It solidifies into a particle. I’m not sure whether that applies to looking at the choices of men, but much of nature teaches us about God and what He would like us to know about Himself. What if He chooses not to look, to give us the privilege of solidifying our own choices, for ourselves? Pure speculation I realize, but it’s something to think about. 
Perhaps OUR making those choices is what’s needed for us to grow up. We can choose as we will – good or bad – what if it’s the act of choosing that matters? The suffering, the sin – or certainly the magnitude of it – was for US to determine and in large part, still IS for us to determine. What if all this pain and anguish really is on OUR hands, not God’s? Could He stop it? Well, technically I suppose He COULD, but what would that do to the grand plan – the bride of the Son, the sons and daughters of the Father, the sanctuary of the Spirit? What if this is the only way human beings can come to embody the love of God – by choosing and choosing and choosing until at last we truly do choose life?
by choosing and choosing and choosing until at last we truly do choose life?
But Cindy if we never know anything except life and good and light and love how would we ever be mature enough to be capable of making real choices.
To truly choose life i think we need to truly experience evil, not just be told about it.
Here are some synonyms and such for the word ‘evil’. It might be a good idea to be specific about what we are charging God with, before we go too far afield.
profoundly immoral and malevolent.
(of a force or spirit) embodying or associated with the forces of the devil.
wicked bad wrong immoral sinful foul vile dishonorable corrupt iniquitous depraved reprobate villainous nefarious vicious malicious malevolent sinister demonic devilish diabolical fiendish dark monstrous shocking despicable atrocious heinous odious contemptible horrible execrable lowdown dirty
harmful or tending to harm.
cruel mischievous pernicious malignant malign baleful vicious destructive harmful hurtful injurious detrimental deleterious inimical bad ruinous
(of something seen or smelled) extremely unpleasant.
unpleasant disagreeable nasty horrible foul disgusting filthy vile noxious
It might be a good idea to be specific about what we are charging God with, before we go too far afield.
The only thing i’m charging God with is having our best interests in mind though the method may not be palatable to us. To rephrase it, i think God caused Eve and also Adam to “miss the mark.”
He didn’t directly make Eve fail but she had no real ability to resist and neither did Adam IMHO.
I agree that neither Eve nor Adam had the power to resist producing or participating in evil – because they had not chosen to eat from the Tree of Life. Paul couldn’t resist sinning either, without eating from the ToL, nor can we. That said, I don’t think sin was necessary for us to learn, in this earth, to be kind to one another, help one another, sacrifice and give ourselves for one another, and trust God. This is the case, because we still live in an arbitrary (though not evil) environment with other creatures that are evolving and developing and which are NOT conscious in the sense that we are conscious.
If you want to define “evil” as Dave has above, which is our definition of that particular English word, there’s not a chance in hell I’ll agree that God is the author of that. No offense intended – that’s where I am and I’m absolutely certain that’s where I’m staying. BUT if you define evil as I think it’s sometimes used in the OT and probably should have been translated more in the lines of “catastrophe,” then I suppose there’s a case to be made. Father made the earth and the universe as growing, changing, developing systems, and catastrophe (unless He directly prevent it) is inevitable and probably necessary. Because of that, there is scope for knowing what is good and what is bad and why we want to eat the sweet and reject the bitter. We didn’t have to go hatin’ on one another in order to grow into the image of Christ – we really didn’t.
I have to respectfully - and I mean that, we’re on the same side here - disagree with that word ‘caused’. No matter what the evil, to say of
God that He ‘caused’ it, just plain sounds wrong. There are those among us -not saying anyone right here now - that believe all the evils and the synonyms thereof that I listed ARE in fact, ‘caused’ by God, either by direct causation or indirectly just by the fact of creating a universe where they are possible.
To quote a famous person, not a chance in hell that I’ll ever agree to that.
But I know that we are on the same side, that is, confounded by the fact of evil. We are in good company with some of the best minds ever, who have never come up with a solution that pleases everyone.
Here’s what I did; please tell me why its not working. I hit the quote button. Then I typed my message–the one you are now reading–beneath your quote. I don’t see any quote tags on this page. All I see is your quote and space beneath it, which is where I’m typing my response. What am I doing wrong? Thanks, and sorry for being so dim.
“To say that God’s goodness may be different in kind from man’s goodness, what is it but saying, with a slight change of phraseology,
that God may possibly not be good?” ~John Stuart Mill
You did it right this time, Steve. The only thing that you did wrong before was to put your non-quoted text BETWEEN the quote tags. Only the quoted text belongs between the tags. It’s hard to show you for this reason: If the tags are used correctly, they won’t be visible on the published post. I’m going to show you using curly brackets { } but the brackets you need to use are NOT the curly brackets. You need to use the square brackets ].
{quote}Four score and seven years ago{/quote}
The above shows the beginning tag {quote} and the ending tag {/quote}
If you type the code for yourself, be sure to use the BACKslash (the one on the ? key) and not the forward slash. Let me know how this works for you.
“To say that God’s goodness may be different in kind from man’s goodness, what is it but saying, with a slight change of phraseology,
that God may possibly not be good?” ~John Stuart Mill
But isn’t God’s goodness the same as ours yet different in certain ways. God wiped out or to put it differently “killed” mankind except for a few with the flood, yet we accept the explanation for the flood.
The explanation for the flood sounds rational yet evil immediately returned.
There are those among us -not saying anyone right here now - that believe all the evils and the synonyms thereof that I listed ARE in fact, ‘caused’ by God, either by direct causation or indirectly just by the fact of creating a universe where they are possible.
To quote a famous person, not a chance in hell that I’ll ever agree to that.
But I know that we are on the same side, that is, confounded by the fact of evil. We are in good company with some of the best minds ever, who have never come up with a solution that pleases everyone.
I am also confounded by evil. Yet despite the fact God only told Adam that in the day he ate the fruit he would die, God also added curses to the punishment. Curses that affect 50 billion people who came after Adam, people who had nothing to do with what Adam did, people who didn’t choose Adam as their representative.
I’m simply trying to say that we like to blame Adam for all the ills of mankind, we like to distance God from anything we perceive as negative but realistically God is large and in charge and responsible for everything IMHO. Some of God’s purposes really are a mystery.
Evil being a mystery is one thing; but laying all the miseries of humanity - and tears enough to fill the oceans - on God just cannot be the answer. IMO we have to keep looking for a better solution.
Here’s a reductio ad absurdum , of sorts : “Yes, I brutally raped the young girl, but if God had not created the world, I would not have been able to do it. In the end, it’s God’s fault.”
Should God be punished? Should He apologize to us? That would seem to be the logical conclusion.
I’m just trying to follow out the reasoning here. I’m in the same boat as everyone else in trying to get a handle on things.
“Yes, I brutally raped the young girl, but if God had not created the world, I would not have been able to do it. In the end, it’s God’s fault.”
Should God be punished? Should He apologize to us? That would seem to be the logical conclusion.
I’m just trying to follow out the reasoning here. I’m in the same boat as everyone else in trying to get a handle on things.
But God did more then create the world, He cursed the land and mankind with thorns and thistles for Adam’s sin. I don’t know what the thorns and thistles precisely mean but they don’t sound fun. However my attitude about God is that He owes us nothing , we owe him our lives and if we don’t like it we can checkout anytime.
I trust that God loves us and wants the best for us but i think we tend to see Him in one extreme or the other. Either is so holy he can’t look upon or tolerate sin so he must send sinners to eternal hell, or He is so loving that He would never do anything to harm us and any evil or sin is entirely mans fault.
Probably the truth is lying where it’s usually found.
But WAS it a curse? I’m not actually certain of that . . . .
Let’s say that your daughter (if you have one) having come of age, decides to move in with a boy you know to be a lifestyle liar, who will not look for a job and who on the few occasions when he’s had one, has been inconsistent in showing up for work and disrespectful to the boss, is in addition, misogynistic, domineering, and needy, tends to stay out all night and sleep all day, and has never taken care of himself in his life. What a nightmare!
You say to her, knowing that you cannot forbid her choice and that she is determined and will not be talked out of it, "You will work for him and he will spend all the money you make. He’ll pawn all your possessions of any value and you will have to pay them off, only so that he can pawn them again. You’ll have his babies, do all the work to care for them, continue in your unskilled employment, but you won’t be able to trust him to watch the kids while you’re at work. You’ll never have a house and probably never even have a rental trailer; every time your car breaks down it will be a major catastrophe. You’ll always be on food stamps, always on medicaid, and this state of affairs will go on for as long as he is with you. Eventually there will be too many children and he will leave you alone with them at last, and you will be inexpressibly grateful that he did.
Now in saying this, have you just pronounced a curse on your daughter? No, of course not. You love your daughter and your heart is broken at the prospect of what life is going to be like for her (and you) because of her foolish decisions. You’re just telling her what to expect.
That’s the way I see the “curse” in the garden. I’m not saying I’m right, but it’s something to think about.
it seems prudent as well, to move from the clearest and fullest revelation, to the unclear or uncertain.
For instance:
In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son,
whom he appointed the heir of all things,
through whom also he created the world.
3 He reflects the glory of God
THIS is what God is like - I think it is saying - look at Jesus Christ. He is the clearest expression of what God is like - clearer than anything written in the old testament, clearer than even prophetic statements - He has been put on display for some to have seen and handled, and pass along that experience and knowledge to us.
Again - look, I’m a struggler too, I could be wrong - but I do think that if we start anywhere else but with Jesus Christ, we’re gonna get God wrong in some way.
Great point, Dave B. It is impossible to START with Jesus and end up with eternal torment. If we interpret all judgment verses–including Christ’s own words–in light of Christ’s character, then the only possible conclusion is that mercy will triumph over judgment. Otherwise we make a mockery out almost everything Christ represented.