Hi Gnostic Bishop,
The essay Dave is linking to is one that most universalists have read and it informs most of the members thought here regarding “justice” and penal substitution atonement to greater or lesser degrees. This is not just any old “essay” and I would recommend highly you read it carefully if you want to engage in this kind of discussion–just to know where most of us are coming from.
Steve
You have just condemned the Christian God. Nice.
If you do not believe God ever punishes the innocent, then you are either not reading the bible literally, which is better, or you have scrapped half of the bible that shows God punishing the innocent. That is a lot of cherry picking if hat is what you are doing.
What does your mind do with all those instances that you do not believe?
Regards
DL
Not yet. I did scan that piece but did not like the way it was written. Too many statements that I did not like and without the author here it is pointless to read. That is why I asked our friend for his quick version in case he had the same concerns.
Regards
DL
I gladly condemn any unjust portrayal of God. I do think there are branches of Christianity whose idea of God is unjust. That’s not the same as condemning God himself.
What instances do you have in mind?
Sonia
It’s safe to assume that a bunch of us here agree with what MacDonald says. We might be willing to discuss those statements you don’t like.
Sonia
GB said:
There are a lot of unspoken assumptions in what you’re saying here, GB. It seems you think there is one way of reading the Bible which is truly “Christian” but you don’t agree with it? Not accepting certain passages as from God appears to be verboten for a "Christian in your mind? I think you’ll find there is a wide spectrum here on how people read the Bible–a wide range of views regarding inspiration and inerrancy. Why don’t you quit being coy and lay out what your views are and the argument you’re making? 
Good God. You have to ask for an example?
youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI
youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgVf … r_embedded
Most of what Jesus taught is un-workable rhetoric and some, like his no divorce rule for women is downright anti-love. From what some foolishly call a God of love.
I have challenged many Christians to debate morals and they all tuck tail as they know they do not have a leg to stand on.
Regards
DL
I second that. You are verging on gibberish. If you want to be understood, stop being coy and rude.
IF you want to be understood - maybe pontification is your only aim?
Speak and tell us who you are. If not, why should we care what you say?
I just gave a reply above showing some of God’s judgements. They relate to the O. P.
Please opine.
And to your last.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
Regards
DL
Gnostic Bishop said:
Still being coy, eh? 
I am getting a better picture now with the post above… Gnostic Bishop said:
So, you’re an atheist who believes “Christians” need to take a literalist or at least “inerrant” view of the Bible? Certainly that makes an easy straw man to knock down or piñata to whack. You might want to head over to a Calvinist forum for that… 
I think you’ll find many of our views of scripture a bit more slippery and irritating to you. What if I told you that I don’t believe all of the bible was inspired by God but is a record of what people recorded regarding what they thought about God from way, way back? Some of it is an accurate view of God and some isn’t—it’s human documents written by humans. What if I told you I believe the gospels are the writings of men meeting an extraordinary Man and seeing extraordinary things and thus the gospels are their remembrances of those events and his words ?(Plus, perhaps some embellishment and literary license). What if I told you the epistles are the thoughts of these early witnesses trying to figure out what this all means? (With wrong turns in theology and their own thoughts presented at times as the word of God.) What if I told you I could see the character of Jesus shining through the dirt and bugs on the windshield as I look at Him presented in the Gospels? I suspect you might pout and protest about “evidence” --but there is empirical evidence and experiential evidence and the combination is enough for me. Could say much more about resonance of Jesus’ words with my conscience, or moral intuition but won’t at this point…(hmmmm … now that would be an interesting discussion for us non-innerantists…)
As you might know (or maybe don’t), as a Universalist, I think we’ll all end up in the same place. To be honest, you may be far ahead of me in your personal morality and ethics–the way you treat people and live your life, (I really have no idea), I only know that you are my “brother” whether you know it or not.
All the best, 
Steve
Thanks for this.
I disagree that the gospels were written for the purposes you claim. To show their thoughts on God.
It had more to do with coin in religious hands than God.
P.S. I am not an atheist and when I discuss the Christian God I use a literal translation as any other kind would be a waste of time.
I do have morals though. Did you want to engage on what I gave?
Do you think that God worthy?
And yes brother. As a Gnostic Christian, I am there for you.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Regards
DL
Hi Gnostic Bishop,
Thanks for clarifying things. I understand quite a bit better now where you’re coming from. I don’t think I’ll engage in debate about your points, but someone else might…
All the best,
Steve
It should be evident from the title of this site that the Christianity promoted here is rather different from the Christianity believed by many Christians.
So far you haven’t done much debating.
Is this an attempt to scare us?
Sonia
if you wish to be rude and misconstrue everything i say, i will simply ignore you. good day 
BTW, Gnosticism was a heresy for good reasons, you ignoramus
GB, you haven’t got a clue what people here believe. Nor will you get a clue if you carry on NOT reading what people actually say. Try again. Read the responses you’ve received carefully, trying very hard to see only what is there (not what you expect to be there). It’s a difficult thing to do, but you can become good at it in time (or at least you can become better).
Read with the goal of understanding what the person is trying to communicate to you – NOT with the goal of refuting him/her no matter what is in fact actually said. Horror of horrors, you may find you agree with the response. I realize this is NOT what you want, but if you’re going to communicate with people you have to be willing to accept the fact that they may not follow the script you were anticipating. People seldom do.
See any Christians offering any arguments? Neither do I.
Regards
DL
Search the archives, this dead horse has been kicked into the dust.
I am hearing this often enough yet no one is giving any information.
I am not surprised as most are quite poor at any kind of communication.
Eventually I imagine people will stop bitching like children and start acting like adults.
Regards
DL
Another useless reply. Thanks.
Regards
DL
The problem seems to be that we’ve responded to you, but you haven’t come back with any meaningful response. We can’t debate you if you won’t engage with what we say, or even try to figure out what we’re saying.
Sorry.
You’re welcome to chalk this up to another instance of Christians “tucking tail” if that makes you feel good.
Sonia