Preferably, a song worthy of being called God, what ever that song may be I cannot say for certain; only that a one note song is not a song.
A direct relationship is one where God, and “Not God” (myself) are in true union.
Because Christ is God, I do have a direct relationship.
If I don’t have a direct relationship with the Father, if Unitarianism is true, I never will, under the unitarian position; I feel it would be impossible.
A Unipersonal God cannot be Panentheistic, so I could not have a union that way. And a Unipersonal God cannot be “God-Man” as Christ is, so I could not have a union that way.
I do, because God (even as The Father) is not Unitarian, therefore I have a relationship with him through Christ - who is God, and therefore I have a relationship with God, whoever and however he is; even as The Father.
I don’t see how it is possible for God to be seen at all if he’s stuck in a state of Unipersonal Invisibility; if Unitarianism is true, then the unchanging God would be a perpetually invisible, homogenous singularity; and it would necessitate that even Jesus could not see God (being a “Not-God”), and even the Angels (being “Not-Gods”) could not see God, and we would never see him.
No, because Christ is God incarnate, therefore I am not separated from The Father, who is also God.
If anything, that tells me God is far from Unipersonal and Unitarian.
If he’s Unipersonal - Unitarian; that’s exactly what he is.
I’d say you’re wrong, or else that you simply haven’t yet been able to understand me.
It isn’t Modalism any more than Trinitarianism is. Modalism necessitates that the expressions be “masks” an “either/or” figure.
I believe the following;
God is a synonymous unanimous oneness of persons and attributes, who interact and exist co-existentially, co-essentially, interpanentheistically, and interpanenexistentially in heterogenous synonymy; especially synonymy of one will and one identity; God, the omniessential supreme being.
“The Person” was an attempt to reach you on your own terminology.
But I am not a Modalist. The synonymous persons of God are fully capable of interaction with one another, and eternally co-exist at the same time; they are not modes or masks. If there is any modalism involved, it is only that each of the divine persons may take what ever forms, wear what ever clothes they wish to wear; from pillar of fire, to pillar of cloud, to burning bush, to otherwise. But a change of clothes isn’t a change of person, in the existential sense of person.
I think your final quote of me, answers this question. But to answer you directly:
I believe that the Father and the Son are two different divine Persons. The Son is divine in virtue of the fact that He is the “only begotten God”. The Father of all is unbegotten, and is “the only true God”. Yet Jesus is just as divine as the Father.
When dogs beget offspring those offspring are dogs, and they are canine. When people beget offspring, those offspring are people, and they are human. When God begat His only-begotten Son, that Son is theos(deity) and is divine. I’m using theos with reference to “the kind of thing” that the Father and the Son are. “Theos” is used in two different senses in John 1:1. In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with the Theos and the logos was theos. The first Theos with the article refers to God the Father (the only true God). The second theos refers to the kind of thing which both the Father and the Son are. Perhaps it would be correct to say the same hypostasis but two different divine Persons. This is the way I understood Justin Martyr. He and other pre-Nicene Christians understood the begetting of the Son as the first act of God “before all ages”. My understanding is that this first act marked the beginning of time, and since there was no “before the beginning of time” then there never was a TIME at which the Son did not exist.
So my Christology is that of the earliest Christians. I am not a Unitarian, Binitarian,Trinitarian, Modalist, or Arian. My position is simple: The only true God begat a Son who is an exact imprint of His Father, who bears the stamp of God’s nature. It is for that reason that “if you’ve seen the Son, you’ve seen the Father” — not because the two are the same divine Individual (as in Modalism) but because they are exactly alike in their nature.
Would any finite number of notes be enough to make a song worthy of being called God?
You seem to be of the view that Christ’s being God allows us to be in “true union” with the Father because he provides us with an ontological or existential “link” between ourselves and God. But our being ontologically not-God was never a problem that needed fixing, or a gap that needed “bridging” in order for us to achieve what you call “true union” with God. The problem was never the ontological “distance” between man and God (e.g., that he is infinite and we are finite, or that he is “Supreme Being” as you say, and we are not). The problem was moral and relational, not ontological. As far as one’s existence goes, a finite being can never be any closer to an infinite being than it already is. So Christ’s being God does not solve such a problem because it was never the problem. Christ didn’t need to be God in order to be the one mediator between God and men (that’s why Paul refers to him as a “man” rather than a “God-Man” when he speaks of him as being the “one mediator between God and men”), and to reconcile us to God in the sense of which Scripture speaks. His being a “God-man” (even if this were possible, although I don’t think it is) would not have gotten us any closer to God or in any truer union with God in the sense that we needed to be because of our being “alienated from the life of God.”
And even if someone did consider this to be a problem, it’s a problem that could never be fixed. To be an infinite, necessary being and to be a finite, contingent being are mutually exclusive states of being/existence. And an infinite, necessary being can never cease to be an infinite, necessary being, nor can a finite, contingent being ever cease to be a finite, contingent being. To say that any person can be both fully infinite and necessary and fully finite and contingent is, I believe, to talk nonsense. Also, it is meaningless to speak of a person or thing as having two natures (i.e., two mutually exclusive inherent characters or basic constitutions, or two mutually exclusive sets of properties or attributes by which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is). God has his own divine nature which can be nothing other than it is, and which defines him as “God” rather than something else. When God created every finite creature he gave each different creature a single unique nature which defines it as what it is. And just as the nature of God is to have one nature (not two or three or more), so the nature of a human being is to have one nature (not two or three or more). By virtue of what God chose to create when he created the first man, a man has one nature, just like God has only one nature by virtue of his eternal existence.
I believe Scripture teaches that because Christ is a sinless man who made known to us the Father’s true character, we can have a direct relationship with the Father. Christ doesn’t have to be a “God-man” in order for us to be reconciled to the Father and experience fellowship with him, because the ontological gap between God and man was never the problem. It was in our mind that we were alienated from and hostile to God (Col 1:21). When this problem is solved, we achieve “true union” with the Father and enjoy fellowship with him. But again, it wasn’t necessary for Christ to be God to remedy this situation. It was necessary for Christ to be sinless so that he could be God’s perfect human representative/ambassador, but his being ontologically God would not have been the solution to any real problem.
Why can’t a Unipersonal God be panentheistic? How many persons does God have to be in order to be panentheistic?
Actually, if it were possible for a “God-Man” to exist, I’m not sure why a Unipersonal God couldn’t be a “God-Man” just as much as a multi-personal God could. But I believe it’s impossible for any kind of God - whether Unipersonal or multi-personal - to be a “God-Man” (which makes about as much sense as a “Man-Dog” would). And the mere existence of a “God-Man” wouldn’t solve the problem of our spiritual alienation from God, anyway. It’s not an ontological problem that needed to be remedied but a problem of the mind and heart.
You seem to be confusing “relationship with God” with being a step closer to God on the ontological scale of being. But the mere existence of what was before a “missing link” between God and man would not solve the problem with which Scripture presents us. It would not bring us any closer to God in the sense that we needed to be closer to God. The only “problem” this would solve is, I believe, a problem of your own making: “How can we have ‘true union’ with God unless God becomes both God and not-God at the same time, and thus becomes an ‘ontological link’ between God’s nature and man’s nature?” Not only is this impossible, but it wouldn’t give us “true union” or a “direct relationship” with God. It would simply mean there was one person in existence who is an “ontological link” between God and man on the “scale of being.” This wouldn’t bring anyone closer to God in the sense that we need to be brought closer to God (see 1 Pet 3:18; cf. 2:24-25).
Of course a being who was “stuck in a state of invisibility” could never be seen (by virtue of the fact that he was “stuck” in this state), but why do you think the Father (who is a unipersonal being) is “stuck in a state of invisibility?” Just because he’s invisible to us in this mortal state of existence doesn’t mean he will always will invisible to us. I believe God manifests himself in a visible, localized state in heaven where he can be seen by those not-God beings who, whether by virtue of their creation or by some change they have undergone, have been made fit to dwell there (e.g., Jesus and the angels):
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven” (Mt. 18:10). (in contrast to, say, Moses who was only allowed to see God’s back)
Again, it seems evident that the “separation” of which you have in mind is not so much relational or moral but rather ontological. It appears that for you, the “problem” that needed to be solved was our ontological distance from God on the scale of being. But I don’t think this kind of “distance” or “separation” ever was a problem. Nor do I see Scripture as revealing it to be a problem that needed remedying. Of course, you may say that they were both problems, but I think this would need to be proved. Scripture clearly affirms the former, but I see no revelation of the latter.
If you would elaborate on this, it would be helpful. Sometimes it seems you’re just disagreeing with me to disagree. If the Father is not multi-personal, and the Father is the “one God,” then your position that the one God is multi-personal is, I think, seriously undermined (and not only is the “one God” said by Paul to be the Father, but the “one God” is differentiated from “the one Lord, Jesus Christ” - 1 Cor 8:6; cf. John 17:3). And if the Father is over all and through all and in all, then your position that a Unipersonal God is necessarily distant and absent is also, I think, seriously undermined.
Of course Jesus’ God (the Father) is unipersonal. He’s one person, not two or three or more. But who said anything about the Father being “a mass of sentient aether?” Is this how you view every other person of your multi-personal God except for Jesus? Just a big mass of sentient aether?
Would you agree with the following? “God is a multiplicity of persons who all share the same omniessential attributes that make a being ‘God’ rather than something else.”
You again speak of God as being the “supreme being.” Since I don’t think you’ve defined “being” for me, I’ll just have to go with a dictionary definition: “The quality or state of having existence” or “something that actually exists.” Now, I don’t think multiple persons could be said to share the same existence (or identity) by virtue of the fact that their first-person perspectives are unique and different rather than the same. By virtue of their separate first-person perspectives/minds/self-awareness as different persons, they would each have a separate and unique (rather than identical) existence. Even if they all shared the same nature (just as all humans share the same nature) or possessed the same inherent attributes and properties, they would not share the same exact existence. So what you actually have are multiple supreme beings (plural) - i.e., multiple supreme personal existences who share the same nature and attributes.
You speak of “synonym of one will and one identity.” By this do you mean they each share the same will? Or do you mean they each have a separate will, but that they are all willing the same thing? Because I believe it is pretty clearly revealed in Scripture that God and Jesus have different wills, but that Jesus’ will is fully submitted to God’s will.
So you were trying to help me understand you/your position better by speaking as if you believe all of the persons you think are God are all one Person (which would be consistent with your “word/synonym” analogy,I think), when that’s not at all the case? I don’t think that’s really the best way to reach mutual understanding of each other’s positions!
I don’t think you can really blame me for thinking you were a Modalist when your analogy involves “God” being a “word” and the multiple persons of God all being synonymous with this “word.” That sounds to me like one Person simply expressing himself in different ways.
But if you believe in multiple divine persons and not simply one divine person expressing himself in various ways, then what I think you have are actually Supreme Beings (plural) - i.e., multiple divine beings who, by virtue of their being separate persons and each having a unique self-awareness, are existentially different from one another but who all share one divine nature just as all humans share one human nature.
At the suggestion of Jason, I reposted in this thread the following (which I had inappropriately posted in another thread — off topic):
That sounds as if God is a compound being with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as components. I’ve heard JWs crudely refer to the Trinity as “a 3-headed monster”.
But the “one single final ground of all reality” need not be a “trinity”. I believe it to be “deity”, just as in the case of human beings, the common ground which permits us to relate to one another in the way we do is our “humanity.” But that doesn’t imply that there is one big corporate compound entity comprising all human beings.
As I explained above, that need not be the case.
In my view the Father doesn’t depend on anyone or anything for His existence. He is the self-existing One! But the generated Son does depend upon His Father (also called His “God” in several scriptures).
Since the Son is the exact image of the essence of the Father it is not a “lesser” relationship. I have no idea what you mean by “fair-togetherness”.
I deny that the Son is “the past-action creation of a super-angel” nor have I even hinted at such. Have you been talking to a JW lately who was telling you that Jesus is the archangel Michael?
I stated that the Father generated (or “begat”) His Son and this act MARKED the beginning of time (“natural” is redundant since there is no such thing as “unnatural time”). Surely the difference between creation and begetting is obvious. You beget a son, and he is human and sentient like you. He also resembles you physically in that he has two eyes two, ears, a nose, two arms, two legs, etc. You create a painting and it is non-human and non-sentient, and doesn’t have your physical characteristics.
The Son is NOT less. He is identical; you might say he is a clone of the Father. Both have the common ground of being deity.
I’m sure you mean the Son here, since the Father was neither created nor begotten. But the Son was “the only begotten God” (John 1:18 in the earliest manuscripts). The Son is not different from the Father who begat Him; He is another just like Him.
The Father is the independent ground of all reality.
I continue to affirm that the Son is just a divine as the Father, and I strongly declare that He is no less in the sense of deity. Yet, in some sense, He IS less. The Son Himself said, “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
The Father and the Son are not two different independent entitites. The Son is dependent upon the Father. But that fact doesn’t imply that there exists some “super-corporate Person” called “God” who is yet not a Person. The Father (as Jesus affirmed in His prayer) is “the only true God”. Yet Jesus is “God” in the sense of sharing the Father’s essence as His only-begotten Son. Thus He is called “the only-begotten God” in John 1:18 (earliest manuscripts)
In brief, the historic Christian position of the early church to which I subscribe is that God begat a Son “before all ages” (I say “at the beginning of time”). It was a single act. Dogs beget dogs and ther offspring are canine. People beget people and their offspring are human. God begets God and His Offspring is divine. But only God has begotten an Offspring which is exactly the same as He. As Jesus said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Hebrews 1:3 states that the Son is the exact imprint of the essence of the Father. We read in Colossians 2:9
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily…
Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Above-
Higher in authority or rank or place
God (Isaiah 46:9, There is none other above God)
Through-
Completing a work or job
Jesus (1 Timothy 1:15, Jesus came into the world to save sinners)
In-
Being joined, one, or within something/someone
Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11, the Spirit lives in us)
God is the only savior. (Isaiah 43:11)
God calls the Holy Spirit His Spirit. (Zechariah 4:6)
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear O Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”
It seems to be saying that God is One. Perhaps he has different ways to manifest himself to fulfill his purposes?
