The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is God The Author Of Evil?

Theology Biblical Theology
#220

Hi Dave B, you wrote:That, to me, is the worst thought in the world. It is wrong, and impugns the character of our Father. Maybe a caricature of ‘sovereignty’ might not be shocked at the suggestion, but any simple heartfelt love would.
God the Father, (and his human and exalted Son) - hate sin, hate evil and do NOT need evil to show their Glory. God the Father was glorious before He created this world - this solar system - this galaxy - this supercluster of galaxies - this universe - or any other universes. To suggest that He would ordain His children to be killed, raped, starved, enslaved, tortured, - to show His glory?

Your thinking is totally sound, Dave! Thanks for expressing your thoughts and feelings about this matter. That which you said, needed to be said. Now I don’t have to say it.

I respectfully disagree as this thinking doesn’t match up with reality. The reason we disagree about why evil exists is because we are never precisely told so we form opinions. If God hates evil then I know of no reason he wouldn’t stop it. Supposedly allowing free will is the common answer but man’s free will is violated every day. Allowing one man to commit an evil in the name of free will is violating the victim’s free will who would freely choose not to be a victim.
Additionally there are evils caused by natural events every day like floods, fires , hurricanes etc. People starve to death every day against their free will.
If God hates evil and if evil served no purpose God would stop it or greatly reduce it, it is not a free will issue. The only explanation that makes sense IMHO is that evil does serve a greater purpose beyond our suffering which is that we must experience it as a race. The race of mankind must experience it to be sons of God.
So in summary, God does hate evil, Go is love yet God knows from an eternal perspective what is needful for us as a race.

#221

It is difficult for me, Steve, to think that God would ordain the thing He hates.

#222

The first thing I always ask people for is a definition of terms or to clarify - via the right questions (after my idol Socrates) - “what do you mean?” :question: :laughing:

#223

steve7150 wrote:If God hates evil and if evil served no purpose God would stop it or greatly reduce it,

It is difficult for me, Steve, to think that God would ordain the thing He hates.

Dave,
Jesus said to be his disciple we must hate our mother and father, so should this be taken literally? So I think God hates the fact it’s necessary for us to experience evil and in fact maybe he does literally hate evil but if that’s all there is then please explain why he does not intervene and stop it?

It’s not as if God has not intervened many other times like the Flood or Sodom or the Israelites leaving Egypt or many other instances. So God has intervened when it serves his purposes so if it served his purposes he would intervene and stop evil.

I don’t know if God ordained evil or allows evil but he knew it would happen and there are a very limited amount of explanations as to the why.

#224

Isaiah 54:16-17, Romans 8:20-21, and Romans 11:32 give the precise reason the God ordained the existence of our bondage to disobedience and brokenness.

The fact that God is sovereign over evil gives me great comfort because at least I know that the bounds of pain suffered in this world is measured and controlled by a loving God, not evil humanity or random fate.

steve7150 asks an excellent question. If you are offended by the teaching that God ordained evil, then please answer the question as to why God does not stop these tragedies immediately? It is certainly within his power to do so. Please answer that question.

The Scriptural answer is found in Isaiah 54:16-17, ,Romans 8:20-21, and Romans 11:32. He allows these terrible things so that he can demonstrate a greater grace in conquering them in time and also exercising his power through us, even weak people… to further maximize the display of his grace, a perfectly Holy God working good through feeble sinners! WOW!

#225

[size=135]jeff@dgjc.org asks

Jeff, the short answer is: the wrong question cannot lead to a blessed answer; God has already disallowed all evil.

The following is a longer answer, particularly Question 10.

(Also, please consider the ideas of Richard Murray, referenced in the Evangelical Universalist forum here and here.)

Blessings.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT! By Richard Murray.

  1. What if God doesn’t allow evil? See James 1:13-17.

  2. What if Jesus is God’s complete disallowance of all evil? See Acts 10:38; Luke 10:19.

  3. What if God has ALREADY DISALLOWED every evil event, disaster, destruction, sickness, starvation and oppression which exists? See Psalm 91.

  4. What if Jesus on the Cross absorbed ALL the evil that ever has and ever will exist on this planet? See John 1:29.

  5. What if Jesus through the Cross and His subsequent descent into Hell defeated, disarmed, and dispossessed every demonic weapon that has ever been used against the sons of men? See Acts 2:27-31; Ephesians 4:7-10; Colossians 2:15.

  6. What if God, through His determinate counsel and foreknowledge has ALREADY responded to every encounter with evil appearances which we will ever have, and has predestined and pre-fixed a way a way of escape for us to follow? See Romans 8:28-29; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Luke 10:19.

  7. What if Jesus has ALREADY healed us of every sin and sickness which seek to afflict us, but we frequently “know it not”? See 1 Peter 2:24; Hosea 11:3.

  8. What if everything we loose or bind on earth by faith has ALREADY been bound or loosed in Heaven? See Matthew 16:19; 18:18 (where the literal Greek says reads that “whatever we bind or loose on earth will BE, having ALREADY been bound or loosed in Heaven”).

  9. What if death is a Satanic enemy of God and man which Christ has ALREADY defeated and abolished? See 2 Timothy 1:10; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Hebrews 2:14.

10) What if today the ONLY reason we don’t yet SEE evil fully vanquished is due to OUR OWN NEGLECT and UNBELIEF in failing to energetically believe and continually enforce Jesus’ already-accomplished victory over it? See Luke 10:19; Mark 11:22-25; John 14:12-14; Ephesians 1:15-22; Hebrews 2:3-10.[/size]

#226
#227

How do you know whether something is evil, good or neutral? After all, Shakespeare said this in Hamlet: “for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” If God ordained evil and you “discovered” this truth, then why doesn’t the majority of professional theologians, Christian philosophers and churches, endorse that idea?

To your first point, they once asked a Supreme Court Justice how he would identify pornography and he answered he will know it when he sees it. Same goes for evil.

To your second point, I’m sure you know the majority of professional theologians throughout history have believed in eternal torment, do you find this persuasive?

#228

Let’s return to the original 4 questions.

And let’s strike out question 3 and just focus on 1, 2 and 4.:

To the first point - i’m still waiting for a definition of evil and what evil encompasses.
The second point I asking how YOU know something is evil, good or neural?.
The majority opinion question is point 3
The fourth question has not been answered yet either.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0pes2GkdNzn3zXV-loo2RE7XjepntrAaOwhItQ2zkVK3ri7Q9

Would you prefer that I restate the questions? Like Socrates, I know nothing. But perhaps by asking wiser people - such as yourself - I might find out.

Oh, just one more thing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNvzRnotGsY.

#229

Can we stay on point please?

The thought was raised that there are limited Biblical explanations as to the reason for the existence of evil.

I pointed out that Romans 8 and Romans 11:32 both give a precise reason. “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.” The plain reading of the verse is that God ordained disobedience in order to demonstrate his mercy.

Now Hermano says,

What? Evil is all around us, yet he could stop it in an instant! Do we at least agree there is a difference between God’s prescriptive will and his sovereign will? God commands us to leave sin, yet his sovereign will allows sin to exist at this time for a large purpose, to demonstrate mercy.

A new question was raised about what is evil? There are certainly all kinds of evil, but right now I am focusing on disobedience to God prescribed will. For example he said murder, hate, adultery, and lust are sin. Thus they are evil and we are corrupted when we engage in those activities. Yet has consigned all to disobedience so that he could demonstrate mercy.

I have answered the question has to why God ordained the existence of disobedience with an explicit Scripture. Now if you object could you please quote another Scripture that explicitly states why disobedience entered the world?

#230

I’m really doubtful that ‘consigned to disobedience’ is equivalent in any way to ‘ordains evil’.

Romans 11:32
KJ21
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
ASV
For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
AMP
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].
AMPC
For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].
BRG
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
CEB
God has locked up all people in disobedience, in order to have mercy on all of them.
CJB
For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all.
CEV
All people have disobeyed God, and that’s why he treats them as prisoners. But he does this, so that he can have mercy on all of them.
DARBY
For God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all.
DLNT
For God confined all in disobedience in order that He may show-mercy to all.
DRA
For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on all.
ERV
All people have refused to obey God. And he has put them all together as people who don’t obey him so that he can show mercy to everyone.
ESV
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
ESVUK
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
EXB
God has ·given [imprisoned] all people ·over to their stubborn ways [L to/in disobedience] so that he can show mercy to all.
GNV
For God hath shut up all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on all.
GW
God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.
GNT
For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.
HCSB
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.
ICB
All people have refused to obey God. God has given them all over to their stubborn ways, so that God can show mercy to all.
ISV
For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
PHILLIPS
Just as in the past you were disobedient to God but have found that mercy which might have been theirs but for their disobedience, so they, who at the present moment are disobedient, will eventually share the mercy which has been extended to you. God has all men penned together in the prison of disobedience, that he may have mercy upon them all.
JUB
For God enclosed everyone in disobedience, that he might have mercy upon everyone.
KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
AKJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
LEB
For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all.
TLB
For God has given them all up to sin so that he could have mercy upon all alike.
MSG
There was a time not so long ago when you were on the outs with God. But then the Jews slammed the door on him and things opened up for you. Now they are on the outs. But with the door held wide open for you, they have a way back in. In one way or another, God makes sure that we all experience what it means to be outside so that he can personally open the door and welcome us back in.
MEV
For God has imprisoned them all in disobedience, so that He might be merciful to all.
MOUNCE
For God has consigned · · all to disobedience so that he may show mercy to · all.
NOG
God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.
NABRE
For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
NASB
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
NCV
God has given all people over to their stubborn ways so that he can show mercy to all.
NET
For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all.
NIRV
God has found everyone guilty of not obeying him. So now he can have mercy on everyone.
NIV
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
NIVUK
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
NKJV
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
NLV
God has said that all men have broken His Law. But He will show loving-kindness on all of them.
NLT
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
NRSV
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
NRSVA
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
NRSVACE
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
NRSVCE
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
OJB
For G-d has confined all in disobedience in order that He might have chaninah (mercy) on all;
RSV
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
RSVCE
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
VOICE
For God has assigned all of us together—Jews and non-Jews, insiders and outsiders—to disobedience so He can show His mercy to all.
WEB
For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.
WE
God allowed people to disobey him. He did it so that he might be kind and forgive all people.
WYC
For God closed all things together in unbelief [Forsooth God closed together all things in unbelief], that he have mercy on all.
YLT
for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

The point being that both Jews and Gentiles are sinful, and God the Father has made it clear that noone is exempt from self-willed disobedience, which makes possible the wonder of his kindness to ALL.

#231

Yes each us when we sin has willingly done so.

However, seems to me you are still missing the point of the verse. Why would we, God’s wonderful creation, universally will to disobey? All arguments about word choices aside it is because God has sygkleiō all in unbelief. He has bound our nature to unbelief until he sets it free.

#232

I reckon we’ll just have to differ on our interpretation of the verse.

#233

We are on topic, Jeff. You invited me to ask you any questions - publicly or privately - in another forum thread. And I asked some simple questions - on evil - a couple posts above. They are really 3 simple questions. But I won’t pressure or force you - to answer them. And either silence or an answer, is fine with me.

#234

"No man speaketh safely but he that is glad to hold his peace. " (Thomas à Kempis, The Imitation of Christ, Chapter XX.) :smiley:

#235

oops sorry about that. I got lost with all the posts.

Anything less than absolute holy perfection is evil, whether small or great. Thus mankind will be perfectly glorified with no stain or wrinkle in Heavens glory, Revelation 21:27. Until then mankind is stained with evil.

Disagreeing with Shakespeare on that one. He missed that point that the judgment in our thinking can also be misguided. Jesus accused the unbelieving of this in Matthew 6:23. I understand the Christian answer to be that the character of God and his Holy Word are the only trustworthy measures of good and evil.

Well I can tell you why the majority do not. It is a very uncomfortable doctrine that strikes against man’s natural reason. However, it also cannot be ignored that some of the greatest theologians of all time held this view: Edwards, Calvin, Zwingli, Boettner, Palmer, and Sproul to name a few. There are also numerous universalists as well, for example Campana highlighted on the homepage of this very forum and others listed on my book reviews at www.dgjc.org/optimism/book-reviews. So naming proponents or opponents will really not help us here since respectable or at least notable people have fallen on either side of the question. Instead, we will need to ask what the Scriptures actually say.

The problem with this statement, if I understand it, is that we ourselves are the subjects of God’s higher level of perception, yet he shares his thoughts with us. So He teaches us to obey and that to disobey is wrong. As a subject that is my primary concern. Yet God also teaches us that our disobedience is the result of his sovereign choice to make opportunity to offer me mercy. So now I am a subject with understanding above my lowly station. So I could wrongly say, then I should sin all the more, so that mercy shines brighter. Stop, Romans 3:8. Or I might say, well then I am not guilty, but God is. Stop, Romans 9:20. So then I must be content being the subject of almighty God and his purposes and instead turn to the only remaining choice. Worship, Romans 11:33-36.

#236

One other question. Did you read Eternal Selves and The Problem of Evil in it’s entirety, by the link I’ve provided?

Or, just one more thing.

If God ordained evil and you “discovered” this truth, how do you know you are right and not wrong in your understanding?

Oh, just one more thing.

Are you familiar or fluent with Biblical languages, such as Koine Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic - like some on this forum apparently are?

#237

Not yet.

I did not discover it. Many men wrote about it before myself. Yet I could ask the same question of you. How did you discover that God is not sovereign over evil? And how do you know you are right and not wrong? How can we know anything?

So we need to ask the Holy Spirit for illumination from the Scripture and study hard and pray.

#238

For knowledge, I normally go with the Critic of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant. For me, God being the author of evil neither makes theological or philosophical sense. I normally go by what is historically agreed upon. The trouble with someone claiming understanding from the Holy Spirit is this: What happens if two or more people claim this - but have different understandings? Or two or more people claim to be prophets, but prophesize contradictory things? How does the average person know who is right?

#239

The point being that both Jews and Gentiles are sinful, and God the Father has made it clear that noone is exempt from self-willed disobedience, which makes possible the wonder of his kindness to ALL.

This (11:32)is basically the theme of Romans all the way through - and the book of Romans does not teach that God actively consigns humankind to evil and sin. Quite the contrary, from beginning to end the entire Scripture is at pains to show that humans - Jews and Gentiles, - are responsible for their sin;, and thus all - Jew and Gentile - are ‘in the same boat’; but where sin abounds, God the Father’s grace abounds even more. Which is the burden of Paul’s writing in Romans.