The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is God The Author Of Evil?

Theology Biblical Theology
#34

What you have expressed above, Dave, is very close to my own view. The problem of evil has been debated by philosophers and theologians for centuries, and no one yet has come up with a complete answer. I do think that there are partial answers which have been offered:

God does little or nothing to prevent:

1. Suffering From Other People
in order not to interfere with the free will of man. He wants all people to relate to Him of their own free will.

2. Suffering From Natural Disasters
a) in order not to disturb the workings of fallen nature. Particular animals sometimes kill and even eat people.
b) in order not to disturb the workings of nature as God created it. For example if when people stumble and fall over a cliff, if He caused them to land like a feather at the bottom of the cliff, there would be no uniformity with the usual working of the force of gravity.

I know there are many questions, even about the above explanations. And these two are probably not exhaustive in explaining why God “allows” some forms of suffering.

#35

Cole H. > The way God hardens a heart is by simply removing His grace and permitting it to happen.

Sure I totally agree.

Yet that pushes us back further to answer the question of original sin and the nature of man. Why is the nature of man corrupt from birth? Why is mankind even tempted and universally sinful in the first place? The CS Lewis, Arminian style, popular Christianity answer would be to say because of ‘free will’. Yet a will that is guaranteed to sin is hardly free now is it? Sure we all make decisions for which we are personally responsible. However, there is not one human being, except Christ, that has walked a straight line. Instead, because of our bondage to sin, everyone has hit the ditch.

I think Augustine and Jonathan Edwards have written most extensively on this subject. Martin Luther’s ‘Bondage of the Will’ is also a must read.

The focus of Romans 11:32 seems to be concerning the ORIGIN of man’s sinful nature. Why does mankind sin? Because God has bound our very nature to sin. We are unable to not sin because because of our sinful nature, ordained by God. Thankfully, God’s purpose is to exercise grace and set us free. Proponents of ‘free will’ ought to note that it is the grace of Christ that sets us free indeed.

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#36

Jeff, the passages from Isaiah are Isaiah’s thoughts when he prays. This is how he interpreted the wandering away of the people of Israel. Don’t take responsibility—blame God. Thousands still do it today, although some blame the devil. “The devil made me do it!”

Here is the Romans 11:32 verse:

For God has shut up together all in impersuasion in order that He might have mercy on all.

Have you ever noticed that the word for “shut up together” is used in Luke 5:6?
And when they had done this, they enclosed a large number of fish, and their nets were breaking (ESV).

The fish needed to be enclosed in a net in order to haul them into the boat. Only those that were shut up together in one of the nets could be brought into the boat.

In the context of Romans 11:32, the people who were not persuaded by the apostles to entrust themselves to the Son of God, were Jewish people—people who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but was an imposter. But God wanted to have mercy on them ALL! In order to accomplish this, He shut them up together in their impersuasion, perhaps through their religious system,or perhaps shut up in a particular area, so that when the time would come when Jesus was revealed to them as Messiah, they would all come in together (like the fish in the net), and thus God could them have mercy on them all together.

#37

I’m wondering if [tag]JasonPratt[/tag] has anything to add to the interpretation of this verse (Ro. 11.32?)

#38

popular Christianity answer would be to say because of ‘free will’. Yet a will that is guaranteed to sin is hardly free now is it? Sure we all make decisions for which we are personally responsible.

Well i have learned that the term “free will” is not meant to mean what it plainly sounds like. It is used to mean that man has the ability to make choices. Man may be influenced by a million things but he still can make choices and this is called “free will.”

#39
#40

That is a good point. We need to agree on a unified definition of the expression ‘free will’. This article is a good primer, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will. Common street usage of the expression usually means the ‘ability to make choices’. However, in this theological discussion that definition is not complete enough.

Typically in Christian theology ‘free will’ means that natural man, apart from super natural grace, is able to choose, trust, and love God. These proponents claim that the New Birth happens after the individual exercises their ‘free will’ choice. Thus a human supplied condition is the beginning of the Christian life. That is classic CS Lewis / Arminian theology. Alternatively Calvinistic theology insists that man is dead in their sins and will not choose, trust, or love God without a prior supernatural work of grace.

I’d love comments on this article dgjc.org/dgjc/a-quintessential-defense-of-free-will.

Though I think we have drifted from the question of the original post about the origin of evil.

#41

I think the street definition is the best! And I deem it sufficient.

However, if you are looking for a philosophical definition, here is a fairly common one to which I subscribe:

#42

Paidion

I think the street definition is the best! And I deem it sufficient.
Person P has libertarian free will, if, after having performed act A at time T, under conditions C, P could have performed not-A at time T under conditions C.

So lets apply that definition to the raising of a dead man and the healing of a blind man.

Given two dead men, can one choose to not be dead?
Given two blind men, can one choose to not be blind?
Given two alive men, now raised by Christ, can one now choose to be dead?
Given two seeing men, now with eyes opened by Christ, can one now choose to be blind?

Jeremiah 13:23 has been used to answer some of these questions. Of course the one who sees could hold their hands over their eyes to obscure their vision, perhaps because of fear, but they still none-the-less have sight. A blind man however has no sight, no ability to see apart from a miracle. So why oppose the good news of miracles?

Back to our question about the origin of sin, evil, brokenness… Romans 8:20-21 is also used to show that the fallen state of the universe is not from man’s will, but the will of “the one” who subjected it. Paul writes, “For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.”

Paul carefully introduces this subject by saying “the one who subjected it” because he knows that the identity of “the one” would be rejected by most. However, as a faithful apostle he was assigned to reveal the whole counsel of God. So after introducing that there is “one” who subjected creation to futility, Paul then identifies “the one” in his grand conclusion in Romans 11:32.

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#43

Back to our question about the origin of sin, evil, brokenness… Romans 8:20-21 is also used to show that the fallen state of the universe is not from man’s will, but the will of “the one” who subjected it. Paul writes, “For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.”

It’s clear to me that Adam & Eve were just ordinary people as is clear if you look at Eve’s reaction to gazing at the tree. You could say their choice was inevitable yet on the other hand Paul did say “in hope that the creation itself will be liberated” which is different then proclaiming the creation is destined to be liberated.

#44

The ground was cursed because of man’s sin. Likewise, the ground ( I think it is safe to say the ‘creation’?) will be set free from that curse when mankind is restored.

#45

Jeff, several times in the past I have encountered this lame attempt to discredit free will. No believer in libertarian free claims that one can bring about a condition by merely desiring it. Clearly, when the man on the street states that “free will” means “the ability to choose,” he presupposes that there are options from which to choose.

#46

Thanks all for the good discussion. I appreciated the chance to make my understanding known. Further debate may not serve to persuade from the hard-won opinions we each hold. So I look forward to joining the discussion on a future topic. Blessings and grace to you.

#47

Wise decision imo, Jeff! Thanks for the discussion - it is a tough tough question. :smiley:

#48

Dave,

My computer at the office unexpectedly bit the dust a few days ago, after several weeks of frantic (and rather problematic) springtime ‘work’ work at the factory; so my ability to keep up with topics isn’t doing at all well at the moment (and hasn’t been for several weeks). I’m only on now to test the new old computer that some techs migrated my old hard drive to. :wink:

Which is to say, it isn’t that I’m not interested but I’m not in much position to comment at the moment. Very briefly and without detail, I’m (a) on the side of “all” in Rom 11:32 referring to all sinners whether Jew or Gentile or indeed even human (all rational intelligences); and (b) God is only the author of evil in the sense of being authoritatively responsible for providing us with existence and capabilities which we then may and sometimes abuse with our free will. Which is a very large and important authority, but not an authority where God (unlike us when we sin) acts toward fulfilling non-fair-togetherness, injustice, between persons.

But God loves sinners even though we sin, and treats us as His children, not as robots to be programmed in various ways, nor as failures which He poofs out of existence. So for that and other (ontological) reasons, God insists on claiming ultimate authority even over sinners and our sins.

And God fairly pays for them, too, as exhibited on the cross.

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#49

Thanks JP - that particular sentence crystallizes just about everything I have tried to say on this subject (in my fumbling manner)!! :smiley: You would get wealthy if I had to pay you a royalty for each time I am going to use that sentence in the future…

Dave

#50

Dave,

If there’s no reason or desire behind our decisions then they can’t be made. Moreover, without a desire or inclination our choices have no moral significance and cannot be judged good or evil. Motives count too. As Christians our desires are mixed up. But when we are confirmed in grace in the new creation all sinful desires will be removed from our hearts and we will have completely new natures. We will be like God in that it will be impossible for us to sin. We still freely choose what we want but because all sinful desires are gone we will always choose the right thing. This is the essence of true freedom. It doesn’t make us robots to love from the heart. It’s about having a changed heart and new nature. Not exercising a mythological libertarian freedom. Our choices will be self-determined in that they are determined by something within and not external factors.

#51

Each in turn made alive through the promised Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 15:23.

#52

I’m just gonna hang in there with that sentence from JP. I don’t think that it can be improved on or parsed out of existence. I completely understand the positions involved - I suppose that we all do - and those same positions have been around a couple of thousand years (and way before) . I’m satisfied with the position I’ve taken, as you all seem to be satisfied with yours, and I don’t think there is too much more to be said. for myself, anyway.

I’m glad we can have this kind of discussion. :smiley:

#53

In the beginning, God created the earth and He provided everything necessary for man’s existence and well-being.
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, Let us make man in our image according to our likeness: Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

To me, this says that when God created man, He gave us the knowledge of who He is, put His word in our hearts and taught us how to live in righteousness. I believe He gave this earth and the power and authority to rule over it, as a gift to mankind. We are self-governing only by the very words of God(His laws, His truth and His ways). They are the law and the judgment in and of themselves. By this I mean that when we obey them, we receive the blessings of life. When we don’t obey them, lawlessness takes over and destruction occurs. Take for example, as Paidion mentioned, the law of gravity. The law exists as it is. If we are told not to jump off a cliff, we either heed this advice or we don’t. When we don’t, we end up suffering the consequences. It’s not God that destroys us, we do this to ourselves. We can jump off a cliff and survive only if we operate in harmony or stay within the boundaries of the law e.g. gliders, parachutes etc.

God still keeps His word even when we fall. He proved this when He came to earth in the form of Jesus. He didn’t wrest authority out of the hands of man. He came in love, to bring His word back to us and show us how to live again. He also lets us know that His Holy Spirit always has been and always will be, here to guide us. Some will rise up and follow, and some won’t. But at the end of each of our lives, we must all face God Himself who is the Ultimate Judge and Authority.