Davo - I can’t explain it all. I don’t think that it is necessary, though, that sin ‘existed before’ - it was original, brand new, something that had not been seen before. Same with death.
I sometimes will mix up ‘evil’ and ‘sin’. God does not sin, right?..I hope we’re on the same wavelength at this point. He does bring pain and tragedy in the grand game of healing the world from man’s sin, and we call that pain and tragedy ‘evil’; but it is not unrighteous of God, or sinful on His part, to do so.
Yes I think that is easy and normal for us to do, BUT I also think accordingly it has confused our understanding of God’s sovereign hand in the mix.
Yep, definitely on the same page.
As I understand things… the ability for man to err (miss or fall short of the mark i.e., “sin”) was part of man’s original makeup – hence the logical capacity for breaking the command.
I also see biological demise i.e., physical “death” as naturally present pre-fall, due to the fact that reaching forth and imbibing of the Tree of Life and thus “living forever” obviously and logically (to my mind at least) presupposes death’s presence. IOW… IF they didn’t eat of the Tree they would in consequence literally die – which was in the end the case.
Further, to demonstrate the same point pre-fall… whatever was “given for food” upon consumption was biologically breaking down (death in process) and giving sustenance (life in process) to Adam and Eve.
Again… for Eve’s “pain” in childbirth to be “increased” post-fall is clearly indicative of pain’s presence pre-fall. The DEATH Adam died “the day” he ate wasn’t biological death (that happened some 930yrs later) rather it was relational death, or what we’ve come to call “spiritual death”. THAT spiritual separation was the great separation wrought by the First Adam that the Last Adam undone and rectified.
And this is the point as I understand it… had Adam in his “fallen state” eaten of the Tree of Life “death” as I’ve described above would have been immortalised and man forever shut out of the Presence of God post-mortem.
Thus I think “physical death” was ALWAYS a natural part of God’s created order with man stepping naturally through death’s doorway into whatever it is that He has for us beyond that point. “Adam’s” sin had put that in jeopardy.
I think we’re in agreement here - if ‘ability’ and ‘logical capacity’ are terms that do not necessarily involve ‘inclination’.
We may be in agreement here - your terminology of ‘naturally present’ might accord with my thinking that the possibility of death was certainly a real possibility.
I’m with you on that - surely if Adam had stubbed his toe, pain would be necessary to teach him ‘don’t kick hard things’ Pain is not always bad, or an evil.
I may be considered a heretic for saying this, but I don’t think Adam and Eve were the first two people on earth or the first two people ever to sin. This story could just be the beginnings of the Jewish history. The Garden of Eden may have been a predominately good society, but it was not a pristine place because the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in it. From what I understand, the serpent is a metaphor for liars, deceivers and wicked people, and is used throughout the bible as such.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent; They are like the deaf cobra that stops it’s ear.
Isaiah 59:4-5 No one calls for justice, nor does any plead for truth. They trust in empty words and speak lies. They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity. They hatch vipers’ eggs and weave the spider’s web; he who eats of their eggs dies.
Matthew 12:34 Brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
To me, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sounds like the tree that bears bad fruit which Jesus warns us of.
P.S. Thanks for your comment Dave, I agree that man must take responsibility for what we do. I think for now, in the physical world, this is what gives us “eyes to see”.
I may be considered a heretic for saying this, but I don’t think Adam and Eve were the first two people on earth or the first two people ever to sin. This story could just be the beginnings of the Jewish history. The Garden of Eden may have been a predominately good society, but it was not a pristine place because the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in it. From what I understand, the serpent is a metaphor for liars, deceivers and wicked people, and is used throughout the bible as such.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent; They are like the deaf cobra that stops it’s ear.
Isaiah 59:4-5 No one calls for justice, nor does any plead for truth. They trust in empty words and speak lies. They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity. They hatch vipers’ eggs and weave the spider’s web; he who eats of their eggs dies.
Matthew 12:34 Brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
To me, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sounds like the tree that bears bad fruit which Jesus warns us of.
P.S. Thanks for your comment Dave, I agree that man must take responsibility for what we do. I think for now, in the physical world, this is what gives us “eyes to see”.
Actually, it all depends on context and perspective. Perhaps here some might consider you a heretic. But in the church world at large, the majority of Protestant church bodies, might consider universalists here heretics. Personally, I look at the Adam and Eve story through a symbolic lens. I also look at it through the old earth and evolutionary, scientific lens - where it expresses how creation unfolded and how man lost his complete oneness with God.
Adam has been called ‘proto-Israel’ i.e., his story is the microcosmic story of Israel: given a command / blessing or curse pronounced according to covenant faithfulness / exile from land (= death) / promise of restoration (covenantal resurrection).
I tend to see Adam as God first “covenant man” drawn from broader humanity (the dust of the earth) and placed in Paradise (Promised Land) to be His representatives, before God and ON BEHALF OF those from among whom he (they) was taken. Is this not Israel’s story? Adam was God’s son (Lk 3:38)… Israel was God’s son (Ex 4:22), etc, etc.
Personally, I look at the Adam and Eve story through a symbolic lens. I also look at it through the old earth and evolutionary, scientific lens - where it expresses how creation unfolded and how man lost his complete oneness with God.
Randy,
Don’t you think the way Jesus referred to Adam and Eve and Able (blood of Able) he believed them to be literal?
Is there a purpose for evil? As Davo mentioned, there is a difference between ordinary sin and evil, although both can destroy. A pair of scissors is made for the purpose of cutting paper. If one is careless, inattentive or inexperienced in using them, he may incur injury. Of course, "never run with scissors in your hand " because there could be an accident. To use the scissors as a weapon is a whole different story. The purpose has been changed by man, and the use becomes something other than what was intended. I see evil as serving man’s purpose, not God’s .
Ever wonder if God looks down at us and laughs at some of our debates? I do. Surely God has a purpose for everything, even setting it up so we have these debates/discussions. For, if the answer to the question was obvious, the debate would never take place. Or, maybe we are just that dull.
Knowing evil could be an indispensable part of knowledge. If you can’t recognize evil then how can you discern good from evil and choose to overcome evil?
*God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)
God is LOVE (1 John 4:8,16)
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears everything, trusts everyone, fondly expects everything, endures everything. (1 Cor:4-7)*
How could God, who is pure LOVE, create evil?
Yes, God created all things, that is all material things. Evil is not a material thing. It is a characterstic of demons and some people. Evil arose from the rebellious angel Lucifer, also known as “Satan.” Angels and people have the ability to choose. They can choose good or evil. God has never chosen evil.
Yes, you can quote Isaiah 45:7 from the King James, where God supposedly says, “I … create evil,” though most modern translations render it as “I … creat calamity.” Calamity is not moral evil. God does not create moral evil, and I doubt that He creates even calamity. “In Him is no darkness at all.”
Jesus said that the Most High God is kind both to ungrateful people and evil people. (Luke 6:35)
Pain is not always bad, or an evil.
