The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is God Violent In Hell? Does That Influence Us?—Cavanaugh

Featured Writers Alex Smith
#7

Okay those grain offerings were seasoned with salt. But our Lord’s words in Mark 9:49 are not about grain offerings; they are about people.
Yes, I know that some translations include the clause, “…and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt,” which seems to be a reference to the passage in Leviticus that you quoted. However, this clause is an addition, and does not exist in the earliest manuscripts.

It is my belief that the salting to which our Lord referred is very much post mortem. His words about everyone being salted with fire, begin with “For” indicating the consequence of the danger of going to hell that He had just spoken:

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire. (Mark 9:43-49 ESV)

#8

Again, the CONTEXT of the whole passage, at least from verse 30 forward shows this… that Jesus is addressing his DISCIPLES… thus the “for everyone” is tied directly in context to the disciples, i.e., the “salted” remark was NOT a generalised statement speaking of all humanity, let alone postmortem. The enter/ed the life (v. 43) being in the aorist tense shows such to be an action as having occurred or occurring with indefinite consequence or results, e.g., Lk 6:6; Jn 3:5.

Seriously? :open_mouth: You don’t think Jesus was applying this thought (Lev) that they as practicing Jews would have been completely au fait with to people and in particular the disciples he was specifically addressing? The last part of Lev 13:2 says… “With all your offerings you shall offer salt”… salt was the agent that purified and preserved. The coming persecution of “fiery” trials would be that which “salted” or sanctified and preserved, if they hung on in faithfulness.

More than “seems to be” – this is EXACTLY what the copyist had in view.

That matters diddly squat. ALL extant manuscripts are copies and reasonably contemporaneous of each other… we have no originals.

The impending “danger of going to hell” is again Jesus’ prophetic call and refers to Gehenna (γέενναν)… pictured in the object lesson of the ever smoldering fires and masticating worms of Jerusalem’s refuge heap just beyond the city’s wall. Jesus was saying it was better to lose a bit of skin in the fight for righteousness than hanging onto all in unrighteousness and losing it whole-scale in the coming conflagrations he speaks of elsewhere, i.e., AD 66-70.

Again… this language is picked up by the apostle Peter as I pointed out previously and shows that they would have understood HOW “salted” was being used and applied by Jesus. Paul certainly wasn’t ignorant of such usage either when he said…

Anyway this is just another aspect to put out there for consideration.

#9

Davo said:

Wiki says…

The Valley of Hinnom :
Gehenna (/ɡɪˈhɛnə/; Ancient Greek: γέεννα), from the Hebrew Gehinnom (Rabbinical: גהנום/גהנם), is the Jewish analogue of hell or purgatory in Christianity. The terms are derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום, Gai Ben-Hinnom). The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem’s Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.

In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.[1] Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[2]

In Jewish Rabbinic literature, and Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[3] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, although the King James Version of the Bible usually translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

In the King James Version of the Bible, the term appears 13 times in 11 different verses as “Valley of Hinnom”, “Valley of the son of Hinnom” or “Valley of the children of Hinnom.”

Hell has a different meaning?

#10

I don’t see why Jesus would so strongly warn people about avoiding having their bodies being burned up in the valley of Hinnom. Why does it matter what happens to your physical body after death?

In speaking of Gehenna, I think He was warning them against the severe corrective measures that God provides in the afterlife. If people need correction, God will correct them. He won’t simply take everyone to heaven, letting them continue to act according to their present, evil, fallen natures.

#12

To me, all correction leads to Phil 2:9-11.

Once a person bows the knee and confesses from a heart of Faith that Jesus is Lord, they receive the new nature in the image of Christ. Once an adversary, they are now gathered into one in Christ, reconciled, washed and transformed. God will be all in all because Jesus will draw all men unto Himself. The correction, imo, is simply the fire of love consuming the self-centered justifications of man, until all have a broken and a contrite heart. Growth begins from that point, in whatever age.

#13

Can you list the scriptures that warn of these “severe corrective measures God provides in the afterlife.”

This sounds NO different from what the advocates of ECT claim. If good deeds can’t gain entrance to heaven what makes you think bad deeds can block entrance to heaven? One’s deeds are NOT the issue… Christ’s “once for all” deed settled this.

Will Christians face purgatorial judgement?
Poll: Universalists who believe in The Trinity and Free Will
#14

if somebody dies in sin, hatred for God n rebellion…will they go to heaven in that state before having their problems dealt with by God ?..I think not…God will work His ways on that person, in the next Age (or Ages) and ultimately reconcile them to Himself…this may not be a pleasant experience though…but God’s love will overcome ALL in the end.

#15

Hi Neil…

That’s all well and good, but apart from your own personal conclusions… what texts of Scripture clearly informs you of this?

Again, HOW exactly is your “if somebody dies in sin” determined? Are there degrees of infraction in this and what might they be? Would it be right therefore to conclude that ‘said sin’ remains more powerful than Christ’s reconciliation, i.e., does someone’s will, defiant or otherwise, trump God’s will even past death? IF it does, which would be a logical conclusion of what you are saying… what texts of Scripture clearly informs you of this?

These are legitimate questions to ask… which is why I’m waiting for Paidion to furnish us with such verses BECAUSE between you and him what you are both advocating seem like rather cemented beliefs, which I assume (rightly or wrongly) MUST be grounded in the bible.

#16

If we look on this as our own children… my son died and he was not where I as a father would have liked him to have been, what would be my response. Holy cow… he was rebellious and has already died. Am I going to heap punishment on him? What are we thinking the Christ/ cross was for? :unamused:

#18

ALL that says is… “who will ascend… who will descend” BUT that’s ALL it says… NOTHING about “punishment” that you read by way of inference into that text BEYOND what is actually written; such opinion, which is all that is, is less then satisfactory to make such a claim.

#20

I have found the following scripture references to post-mortem punishments:

:slight_smile:

#21

Am I missing something :question: Did you type them with invisible ink :question: :laughing:

Or do you mean there are none, and the space is being filled with hot air - or some other substance :question: :laughing:

#22

I think the scriptural writers penned them using invisible ink. :laughing:

To be perfectly serious: I do not think that any passages of scripture teach post-mortem punishments.

#23

This raises a serious question for me. If everyone is eventually saved (i.e. universalism)… and there is no post-mortem punishment … what’s the advantage of embracing Christianity now (whether via Orthodoxy or some other mainstream Christian church) :question:

#24

The joy of Christ, the peace which passes all understanding.

Sin can sometimes give pleasures (and I think it doesn’t do a very good job of even that), but holiness alone can give joy. One can see it in the lives of the saints, and even (to a less extent) in our acquaintances and in ourselves: The holier someone is, the more joyful he is. The more sinful someone is, the less joyful he is. Saint Paul wrote that all earthly goods (whether pleasures, or money, or power, or position, or etc.) are manure. We therefore have two options in this life:

  1. Acquire holiness and thereby joy.

  2. Acquire manure and thereby misery.

Most people are stupid and think that the path to joy is by acquiring manure, even if the manure is acquired by sinful means. We must not be fools. We need to leave that smelly brown stuff alone and instead lead lives of holiness.

tldr version:

If you want to be happy, then be holy. There’s no other way!

#25

Absolutely, perzactly correct and well put!!

#27

Yes, I can. But quoting scriptures to a full preterist can be an exercise in futility. He simply declares that you are taking them in a “wooden, literal” sense, and thereby dismisses them.

Who said anything about bad deeds blocking entrance to heaven? You quoted what I said. Did you even read it?

If a person has not repented, and has not been regenerated but continues in his present evil, fallen nature, he must be corrected before he is accepted into heaven. Otherwise, he will pollute heaven by continuing his evil, wicked ways. What do you think Christ’s “once for all” deed did? Just forgive everyone of their sin and let them all in? That would not solve the sin problem at all! So He won’t simply take everyone to heaven, letting them continue to act according to their present, evil, fallen natures. He will continue to correct them until they are changed and become righteous persons. It seems no is totally changed in this life. So the apostle Paul wrote:

And bringing it to completion may require correction. “Everyone will be salted with fire.” Both salt and fire are purifying agents.

Jesus said:

Now don’t tell us that all happened in 70 A.D. All nations were not gathered before him in 70 A.D. He didn’t separate the “sheep” from the “goats” in 70 A.D.

Jesus ends his description of what will happen when he comes in His glory with these words:
“And these (the unrighteous) will go away into lasting correction (κολασις), but the righteous into lasting life.”

Jesus is describing the afterlife. Lasting correction doesn’t take place now. A huge number (if not the majority) of evil doers in this life sail through life with no apparent negative consequences whatever. Job understood this, and stated it when his three “friends” implied that he was suffering because God was punishing him for being wicked. Job said:

So if God doesn’t correct evil people in this life, then his correction must take place in the next.

#28

First, an observation: This question applies to most of Protestantism as well as to ultra-universalism. Most Protestants believe that when a saved person dies, snap his soul is instantly perfect and in Heaven.

Second, a question: Most people in this world waste their entire 80 years. I do not see evidence that old people are noticeably holier than younger ones. (Of course, with less strength and more experience, old people are less likely to commit crimes. Not committing crimes does not equal holiness, though. Otherwise females are many times holier than males since males commit most crimes.) Assuming universalism plus post-mortem sufferings, what grounds do we have to believe that post-mortem sufferings will produce saints when our suffering-filled world mostly produces idiots instead?

One more question: How long will these post-mortem sufferings take? My favorite Protestant author (George MacDonald) wrote as though it would take geologic eras (i. e., hundreds of millions of years). While that of course is preferable to never-ending Hell, what does the prospect of 100,000,000 years of suffering do for you? Does it not take much of the good news out of the Gospel? “Good news! You’re going to suffer for a hundred million years!” Huh?

Now to my short answer to your question: I don’t know. I am not familiar with anything in the liturgy that answers that question.

Longer answer: I have a couple of speculations, either or both of which could be inadequate. In any case, I’m sure it will all make sense on the other side of the grave.

Speculation 1: Perhaps part of Satan’s fall consisted of him saying that he could run creation better than can the holy Trinity. God therefore basically said, “OK. Let’s see.” After a span of time (of uncertain length) God will end Satan’s depredations and basically say, “Now everybody has seen what a hash Satan made of it. Now you all know through experience that harmony with my will produces bliss, while sinful autonomy produces death and suffering.”

Speculation 2: When I was 18 I moved into an apartment, and I didn’t live in a house again until I was 26. I appreciated the house much more after dealing with an apartment, whereas when I lived in a house as a child I didn’t appreciate it as much. Perhaps a finite amount of suffering on our fallen earth will make Heaven that much better for us.

Guesses. Only guesses.

#29

Present suffering is either man-caused suffering, or suffering natural consequences. Though many don’t learn to behave from such suffering, there are also many who do. However, post-mortem suffering is administered by God. He will provided only as much suffering as necessary to correct, and not a bit more. There is reason to believe that He will also send the fully complete “sons of God” to bring God’s truth those who will be in the process of being corrected.

It will take as long as is necessary to complete the corrective process, and no more. In some cases (assuming time operates in the after-life as it does now), it may take as little as a few minutes. In other cases where there is a lot of resistance, it may take years. George MacDonald may have been referring to Revelation where it states that for those who worship the beast, the “smoke of their testing” will go up “into the ages of ages.” If an age is 1000 years, then one age of ages would be a thousand thousand (or a million) years. But I am a reader of George MacDonald, too, and have never come across the 100 million years thing. Can you tell me where that is found?

#30

I promise to start working on this question, after I solve this puzzling one, from the Middle Ages. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?. Can you help me out there :question: :smiley: