The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is God Violent, Or Nonviolent?

Theology Biblical Theology
#14

[size=120]Friends, my reactions to some of your comments:

Paidion, I’m glad you and I agree Satan is real, since this round I haven’t taken time to address the Girardians about that point again. Brother, I’m not sure why you mention David’s temptation to do a census as an example of something that was assigned to Satan. I don’t believe God has ever actually “assigned activities to Satan.” The devil is an enemy, and in no wise is he utilized by God in any way, shape or form.

Eaglesway says that "As a man sows, so shall He also reap.” But I think he agrees that grace and mercy (e.g., Hebrews 4:16) trump sowing and reaping every time…for those who are willing to receive it. (Mercy: not getting bad we deserve. Grace: getting good we don’t deserve. An unbeatable combination.)

Steve asks if the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Mt. 13) gives us an explanation for why God doesn’t “just destroy Satan” already. I think so. Our choices as free moral agents will continue to play out inside linear time—apparently through a couple more “ages.” There will be a judgment in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20), where the Lord will continue to pursue and woo resisting sheep. Love is patient.

Our God is a consuming fire. Our God is love. Our God is a consuming fire of love. To paraphrase Prof. Talbott: to resist the love of God in Christ, a person would have to be deceived, or insane. Within linear time, God’s healing fire will help people unclench from their lies. But outside linear time (in eternity) we are ALL already seated (at rest, but not inactive) with Christ in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6).

I think the words “It is finished” (three little words; two in Spanish: “Consumado es”; one in Greek: “Tetelestai”) will continue to be unpacked, forever. We will never come to the end of the treasures Jesus has made available to us through his obedience. What is included in his “Divine Exchange”? Unlimited good! The Messiah already 1) took our pain and suffering (distresses, griefs, sorrows, infirmities, and sicknesses), and 2) gave us his shalom (health, prosperity, friendship, safety, contentment, peace). Is. 53: 4, 5. It cost Jesus everything, but it’s all free for us to receive, now. “Whoever desires, let him take…freely.” Rev. 22:17.

I used to think “spiritual warfare” was about fighting things like Mormonism, Islam, abortion, the Antichrist. Now I know that basic warfare is recognizing the devil right in the middle of the Christian camp. In broad daylight, he sits there, convincing us that our loving heavenly Daddy is a bipolar monster. That we must successfully perform (through prayer, fasting, et al) to try to earn what is actually free. Satan is the god of a religion that demands adequate performance, but gives only exhaustion, condemnation, and the fear of hell.

Is God violent, or nonviolent? This is really a question about the fundamental nature of God, isn’t it? I sure would appreciate your taking another look at the Murray material I reference. He lays things out so wonderfully. Murray’s article literally changed my life!

Blessings.[/size]

1 Like
#15

Is God violent, or nonviolent? This is really a question about the fundamental nature of God, isn’t it? I sure would appreciate your taking another look at the Murray material I reference. He lays things out so wonderfully. Murray’s article literally changed my life!

A good book to read is “Don’t Blame God” by John A Lynn. He claims that the OT biblical authors use a writing technique known as “metonymy’s” replacing one for another so in the OT when evil was committed though it was attributed to God it was really Satan. This is also the premise Murray used. To me it is really interesting that after hearing little about Satan in the OT , Jesus is quickly tested by Satan in the NT who offers him all the kingdoms of the world. Jesus turned him down but never challenged his right to offer the kingdoms of the world.

#16

Hi Hermando,

Sorry about that, Hermando. Without thinking, I used the word “assigned” only because you mentioned that New Testament writers assigned evil to Satan. When saying this, I was thinking that Old Testament writers assigned evil to Satan also. I didn’t mean that God assigned Satan to do evil.

Notwithstanding, the passage I quoted affirms that Satan enticed David to do the census, while the earlier passage stated that God incited him. Is this a contradiction? It apparently is, but I think it suggests that there was a development in Hebraic thought. Earlier Hebrews ascribed all supernatural acts to God, while later Hebrews ascribed only good supernatural acts to God, but evil ones to Satan.

#17

**Violence in Islam is a sizzling topic these days. Here is a recent news story with a twist:

“Pranksters film people’s shocked reactions at reading violent passages from the Bible - after being told they are from the Koran”

dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic … Koran.html**

#18

Hermano,John & Paidion- The passage you are referring to in the OT uses the word satan which means adversary. One passage says David is satan to God and the other one is vice-versa. This to me illustrates my point satan is not a supernatural fallen angel but an adversary. When Jesus called peter satan He meant Peter was being adversarial to Gods way, putting human way first. When radical muslims call the USA the great satan, they are calling us the great adversary. The only other place satan is used in the OT is in Job. If satan, Gods enemy who sought an overthrow in heaven, is a fallen angel then what is he doing in Gods court, in Gods presence??? If you think of adversary everytime you read the word satan it will begin to fit together that anyone who is an adversary, especially our sinful nature, is what is being meant and not a supernatural fallen angel.

#19

Robert, the above essay presupposes the belief that angels are literal spirit beings created by God to serve Him. That some, the good angels, have remained obedient to Him and carry out His will, while others, the fallen angels, disobeyed, fell from their holy position, and now are in active opposition to the work and plan of God.

As you know, Angelology is a slippery subject, because every biblical reference to angels seems to be incidental to some other topic. Like many things, they are not treated in themselves.

From what I recall in my studies, the Church Fathers believed that angelic beings regulated nature. I myself believe Satan, as a superhuman malicious intelligence, meddles in meteorology and geology, causing, e.g., the worldwide Flood of Noah (see my comment, “Did God kill everyone in the Genesis Flood? Or did Satan?”, and note the Hydroplate Theory), and tinkers with the genetic code, causing, e.g., carnivorous animals, influenza, and diabetes. Points I certainly cannot prove.

So obviously our views on Satan are very different.

You should find interesting my earlier post, “Fighting For God’s Nonviolence,” wherein I first lay out my alternative to the Girardians, who, like you, believe “satan is not a supernatural fallen angel but an adversary.” Some of the comments there are from distinguished advocates of René Girard’s Mimetic Theory, e.g., Michael Hardin, and my favorite filmmaker, Kevin Miller.

Blessings.

#20

These topics are good. I have pondered much in the last several years regarding this topic. I can really see both sides (violence always being wrong, vs sometimes necessary) - I think Paidion might have explained it best when he mentioned a hierarchy of morality. For example, Killing is wrong, but if Killing someone saves millions of lives, then Killing is morally right in that scenario. I believe this to be accurate, otherwise we have too many dilemmas that we cannot solve and the person of God is in constant doubt as to what they should do.

Now, as for the non-violence part - I have done a 180 on this. I really was almost sold on the idea that violence was always wrong, but for some unexplainable reason, I reject that idea fully now. Violence is both necessary and proper at times. Perhaps in heaven, that would be true, but not on earth. As for my defense of it - The whole being of man himself being a defender, warrior, etc… It is built into our genetics. Taking that away and portraying Jesus as this feminine weak guy that we must mimic, is just wrong. He was bold as a lion, spoke harsh words against those who oppress and was anything but a push over. These are just my opinions… I reserve the right to be wrong. :slight_smile:

#21

Okay, Gabe, we grant you that right. (I had to say that since you left yourself open) :stuck_out_tongue:

Actually, I agree with most of what you said.

But I am unclear as to what you said about violence. Did you say that violence is always wrong on earth, but may be right in heaven? Or did you say that violence is sometimes right on earth but always wrong in heaven?

#22

The latter… “violence is sometimes right on earth but always wrong in heaven” I know I worded that backwords… :slight_smile:

#23

Gabe, I respectfully disagree. I think what it comes down to, for all of us, is ignorance about true spiritual warfare. I think my essay above addresses the most fundamental warfare: learning to distinguish God from Satan. (There, the Murray article I reference is so vital in understanding the true nature of God.)

As for us humans, is violence justified? Should we not oppose criminals with deadly force? Should we not protect our families and our countries through the use of (counter) violence?

BUT, instead of generalizing to “us humans,” I think that in this forum, the focus should be on “us Christians.”

So, how are we Christians to withstand violence and danger?

Well, again, from my essay above, “Our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood,” and “The weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal.” Ephesians 6:12. 2 Corinthians 10:4. And I might add, ‘Flesh just gives birth to more flesh.’ John 3:6.

My Christian experience is charismatic: I pray in tongues, and believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are channels of God’s love and grace still available today, ‘to as many as did receive him’. (And in spite of abuses and scandals along this line, I hope you won’t ‘throw out the baby with the bathwater.’)

Recall how the prophet Elisha would warn the king of Israel about ambushes set up against him by the king of Aram. The king of Aram eventually became so frustrated, that he accused his own counselors of selling him out. He demanded of them, “Tell me! Which of us is on the side of the king of Israel?” But someone spoke up and said, “None of us, my lord the king,” said one of his officers, “but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the very words you speak in your bedroom.” 2 Kings 6.

So we Christians today, having the Holy Spirit, should be learning to hear the voice of God, just like Elisha, in order to escape danger, and to warn others, in advance, of specific danger.

Jesus, living as a human being like us, set the example for us about how to live in dependence on the Spirit, to fulfill his Father’s desires. At the Jordan River, Jesus walked us through the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, and later demonstrated all the Gifts of the Spirit. E.g., the Word of Knowledge: *“ ‘How do you know me?’ Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, ‘I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.’ ” * Jn 1:48. And of course, gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, wisdom, et al, —all while living as a human being, like us, in the power of the Spirit.

Speaking of violence, Jesus supernaturally escaped untimely death, without striking a blow:

  • Luke 4:29 They got up, drove him out of the town [Nazareth], and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. *But he walked right through the crowd *and went on his way.
  • John 8:59 Then they took up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

He didn’t kill anybody: that is not his nature. That is not our new nature, either. And we have superior weapons available, which are not carnal.

Remember “binding and loosing”? Binding and casting out death and Satan, and proclaiming and loosing life? These are ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ Matt. 16:19, 18:18. We must learn to receive and walk in these Gifts, and to wield these weapons, in order to not be victimized, and to successfully extend the kingdom of heaven. We must proclaim, demonstrate, and enforce the finished work of Jesus (“It is finished”). We are leaven that is spreading life throughout this fallen creation, and God wants us to be in the right place, at the right time, saying and doing the right things.

Although he’s not yet an “Evangelical Universalist,” I enjoy pastor Joseph Prince of Singapore and what he teaches about the authority of the believer. And obviously I love Richard Murray.

I am glad you are wrestling with these important questions, Gabe.

Blessings.

#24

Hey Hermano- I will gladly read the essay you mentioned. I have come to adapt this view of satan over much time and study, as i previously held your view. I agree with you the entire subject of angelologyis puzzling and not laid in concrete. I simply do not see any passage where it describes satans heavenly rebellion and his banishment to hell along with other fallen angels. Of course, not believing in a literal hell affects my view as well. :wink: The interesting thing is hell is supposed to be the ultimate place of separation from God, yet if he is a supernatural fallen angel how is it possible for him and demons to roam around the earth??? I think the many activities you believe are caused by or influenced by satan are actually manmade for the most part except for natural disasters, which in many cases are affected by ma ns pollution and misuse of the earths resources.

Gabe- Jesus is definitely NOT merely a feminine,doormat guy. However, He acted in a manner many times which some could call feminine, in which He submitrte to authorities, showed endless compassion and kindness,allowed Himself to be abused and tortured resulting in death by crucifixion. He also stood strong towards those who were wrong about God like the jewish religious leaders and others who tried to cause harm. I believe Ephesians 6:12 is referring to our sinful nature which is spiritual in itself and not flesh and blood. The spiritual warfare is against any attitude,thought,action which is adversarial to God and His Spirit.

#25

I don’t know.

In the Old and the New Testament, killing in war is approved.

So, is there really any dispute about this? Violence in war, is certainly not the same as the destruction of our soul.

Luke 3:14
Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

“A time to wage war and a time for peace” Ecclesiastes 3:8

Dying in this world, is not the same to God, as it is to us. For us, we leave our only known place of residence,and it is a fearful exchange, but for God, who lives in eternity, it is not leaving, but merely changing or transferring. God does not fear death of the body. He knows we will be transformed one day, and death is only a journey over to the other side for us.

Young’s Literal Translation
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Matthew 10:28

I will guess that God realized in this fallen world, there would be times we must resort to violence, not because it is good, but because the risk to the continuation of His Word, and those who carry it and pass it on, was overriding. And the Word is life…the most pure form of life, for it is the Bread of life came down from Heaven. “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” John 6:51 There is no scripture that I am aware of that states that God likes war or killing, but many statements that say He doesn’t like it. And, to choose life, whenever possible.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Deuteronomy 30:19

“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Matthew 26:52

But, as we universalists believe, our souls will live on in eternity, because of the price that Jesus payed on the cross.

And that is why our God is not a violent God…because He knows the passage from death of the body to eternity is merely a transfer, and nothing more.

Just to say, this is the first time I actually thought this through, in this manner.

My 2 cents.

D.

#26

Hermano, I just reread the posts. I realize I used the wrong word. I didn’t mean that Satan’s inciting David to number Israel was ASSIGNED to him by anyone. I meant that the ancient Israelites first ATTRIBUTED to God the inciting of David to number Israel, and later on they attributed this inciting to Satan.

#28

A couple of thoughts to approach this, that might help to untangle the problem:

A good hermeneutical principal is to interpret the unclear by what is most clear. I would submit that, in making judgment about O.T. stories, and attempting to derive something about the character of God the Father, we are better served by studying the very clear life and character of His son, of whom the scriptures speak eloquently as being the image and likeness of the Father. Broadly, if we understand Jesus the Messiah scripturally, we will know what the Father is like. And if that image causes dissonance with the older testament image, then we can question whether the bloodthirsty imagery of the O.T. is inspired teaching, or whether it is a valuable reportage of how the Israelite tribal culture saw things way back then.

If we get really hung up on a theory of inspiration, to the extent that we ‘flatten out’ the differences and progress in revelation over time, thus giving equal weight to all books of the Bible, I think we do a disservice to ourselves and the Scripture. There is a fullness in Christ, of character and purpose and love, that could not be expressed in early tribal humanity; God the Father keeps ‘moving the cheese’ into larger and larger dimensions of love and peace.

#29

qaz: 1) I don’t think God ever ordered anyone to kill anyone. As I say above,

2)Richard Murray (“Gadite”) addresses the question of Jesus cleansing the temple in a comment on my post “Fighting For God’s Nonviolence” here:
evangelicaluniversalist.com/foru … 596#p79538

DaveB, you make great points.
*****Richard Murray calls your suggested hermeneutical principal “The Jesus Hermeneutic”; for example, see the title of Chapter 6 of his free PDF book, linked in his comment (as “Gadite”) on my post “Fighting For God’s Nonviolence” here:
evangelicaluniversalist.com/foru … 596#p79538
*****Also, what you call “'moving the cheese,” I think I’m calling “progressive revelation”—although the progress is limited not by God, but by people’s ability to hear and receive.

#31

Amen DaveB,

I like the message in genesis.

“In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters”

The God speaks, “Let there be light”, and the light is separated from the darkness- first separation by the word of God. But He continues to separate, first the waters above from the waters below(heavens and earth). Then the dry land from the waters. etc.

This is how I look at the whole creation process. “The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the children of God”

The children of God being those who are conformed to the image of Christ. “He is the radiance of The Father’s glory and the exact representation of His nature.” All those whom he foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ"

That the creation might be set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God"

Peace and Love- thats the liberty. Love fulfills the law, where the fruit of the Spirit is there is no law. It becomes obsolete, as it will be when God is “all in all”. After He has anulled all “rule power and authority”

It is a continuing process of separating darkness and light until only light remains, “The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it” “Death is swallowed up by immortality”.

I think man was created like a naiive child(Adam), innocent.

Then knowledge and self-life entered in and Cain becomes a murderer. Man becomes primitive, beastly. "Except you become as this little child you will in no way enter into the kingdom of God.

In the fulfilled creation man becomes a “new creature”- having knowledge of good and evil but holding it in a child-like heart, and the process comes full circle- so

God is non-violent and He is teaching us WHY, and HOW to become like Him, through a administration executed through the completion of time, His purpose, according to His kind intention to gather all things in heaven and earth into one in Christ.

The Old Testament was only the first couple of stages. (That in the ages to come He might show the riches of His grace towards us in Christ Jesus).

Each stage is progressive, as the seed of the final fulfilled creation( Jesus) is formed from glory to glory, transforming the whole as the matrix of wisdom(knowledge held in a heart of love) spreads throughout.

We think lessons can be transmitted by knowledge. God knows knowledge is insufficient to transform. He is teaching “us”- the whole creation- a few things.

  1. that all things are connected in one to the Creator
    2)that individual fulfillment comes from sowing into the joy of the whole family
    3)that the reason things are passing away is that the former things were like utensils that dissipate with the using- as the lesson is learned and fulfilled through experience into transformation.
    4)that it is better to lay down ones life than to take another’s
  2. that union and communion are better than competition

But as Jesus said, “For the hardness of your hearts Moses gave you divorce”, in each succeeding age the law of love is increasing, and the “corporate heart” of mankind is being softened by the increasingly refined separation of light and darkness untill all is love and all life springs from and returns to light and love.

But in the OT the “former things” were conditioned to the present state of the emerging new creation and its state was primitive. Through those things God prepared “mankind” for the revelation of Jesus Christ- who ushered in the better way, the new creation, another separation of waters above from waters below- and there are more to come, till Christ reigns over all and God is all in all.

What does it mean that Christ reigns, but that one has come into love as the prime directive and source? When the last adversary bows there will be nothing but love and no need for rule power and authority, a higher heaven will have broken through and flooded the heavens below- to the point that they will be"destroyed"- anulled, made obsolete.

The only thing(in my mind) that justifies the paradox of justice and injustice among the children of men is that in addition to holding us accountable as individuals God is holding us accountable as a whole race, the family of creation.

The lesson of Christ is that the family must lay down its life for the family, to take individual responsibility for the redemption and restoration of the whole.

“Good judgment comes through experience”

Experience comes through bad judgment"

#32

Hermano, I read Murray’s article. He makes some interesting points, but I worry about embracing his view. What if he’s wrong? That would mean he’s attributing God’s commands to Satan, which would be blasphemous.

But wouldn’t it be equally blasphemous to attribute to God the actions of Satan? The OT writers knew virtually nothing about Satan and could have simply attributed everything to God. Apparently Satan was god of this world and it’s kingdoms since he offered them to Jesus and Jesus never challenged him on his right to offer them.

#33

I see it pretty much, if not totally, as you have expressed it, Dave B.

#34

Concerning the common notion that Satan is “the god of this world,” I would first point out that the Greek word is not “world” but “age.”
The following translations so render it : HCSB, NKJV, Rotherham, and YLT.

There is nothing in the passage that STATES that this god is Satan. That is a presumption.

Irenæus believed that Paul was saying that God, THE God, blinded those who do not believe. Here is his explanation:

In a nutshell, Irenæus thought the sentence should be read this way:

He thought due to Paul’s rapid writing under the influence of the Spirit, sometimes put a phrase in the wrong position. Then he goes on to show that Paul clearly did this also in 2 Thessalonians 2:8,9

As it stands, the sentence seems to say that Christ’s coming is after the working of Satan. But translators, both ancient and modern who knew what Paul meant, inserted words to clarify it. For example the King James translators inserted “even him” immediately before “whose coming is after the working of Satan.” The NASB translators inserted “that is, the one” in the same place, and other translators changed the whole clause. For example, the ESV reads, “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan.”

#35

Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

I think that the idea that Paul wrote so quickly under the unction of the Spirit that he failed to write accurately is a real stretch. I would rather offer differences in syntax than that, if I thought that was the case. The “god of this age” thing to me is just a literary form of reference by Paul that the one who is offering what people have chosen to be ruled by is the adversary.