I’ll be interested what he has to say about your measured response!
Fyi, I recently expanded the “For Further Consideration” section, above. Also, I was going to add a related comment about blood sacrifice here, but it became a whole new essay, “Is God Bloodthirsty?”
In the letter to Diognetus, the anonymous author who stated that he was “a disciple of the apostles,” wrote,"…violence has no place in the character of God." (Diognetus, near the end of Chapter VII)
Recently, I read a book across which I came not long ago, called “Show Them No Mercy—4 views on God and Canaanite Genocide,” and thought that some of the participants in this forum might be interested:
The authors of all 4 views hold to the authority and inspiration of the 66 books of the Protestant Canon of Scripture. Yet, the writer of the first view, C.S. Cowles, a former professor of theology at Point Loma Nazarene University, expresses my own view that God is totally good “in whom is no darkness at all”—that He is love, and that He didn’t commit the atrocities that are recorded in the Old Testament as His having done. Cowles has succeeded in justifying this view in a way that I, obviously, was not sufficiently capable. I had hoped that I might succeed in precipitating a debate between him and Steve Gregg, but Cowles may no longer be alive. He had a serious disease a couple of year ago, and I can find no evidence either that he is dead or alive.
In my opinion, the other three “views” are essentially the same view—that the OT scriptures say that God commanded the genocide, and that therefore He did. Their differences on the matter are minor compared to the big issue.
Here is a brief overview of the book that can be found at the Amazon site:
Here is the Amazon site where one can purchase the book either in hard copy or in kindle format:
[size=120]Beloved Friends,
I know this important forum is scheduled to go bye-bye very soon, but I think it’s better here than Facebook.
Will you agree with me in asking the Lord to provide all the resources necessary to keep it going?
“Again I tell you, if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.” Matt. 18:19.
Blessings![/size]
Agreed. Though of course I do not know God’s mind as to the future.
And in case God doesn’t answer our prayer…let’s dedicate a song, to everyone here with theology, that deviates…from the normal, bell shaped curb of theology (i.e. the proper statistical term is outlier)…
And any nerds, geeks, holy fools, zombies and p-zombies, visiting the forum. And to one of these band members, who won the Nobel prize for literature. 
Will you agree with me in asking the Lord to provide all the resources necessary to keep it going?
“Again I tell you, if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.” Matt. 18:19.
Amen brother!
Years ago that theory was advocated by Andrew Wommack. He had associations with television ‘prosperity preachers’ Kenneth & Gloria Copeland. Is there any sound Biblical support for it?
Does it lead to the conclusion that since “the finished work of Christ” on the cross, all the evils of the world are to blamed on Christians for failing to “enforce his victory”?
What about before the cross & before there were any Christians? How was God “not permitting or allowing evil” when children were raped, thrown into fire for Molech, etc. Love Almighty could have easily stopped such things, but chose not to. He is responsible.
IMO He’s also responsible for the fall of Adam & Eve, the consequent inheritance of sin by all others through them, and the resultant bloody history of mankind, still in progress. If hell were not a fantasy dreamed up to control the masses, God would be responsible for that also.
That’s not to say that God has sinned. He would not even be guilty of sin if He made people sin or created the devil as a devil to do His bidding. Assuming He will make it all right in the end & for the endless salvation of all. The ends justify the means, especially if they are necessary.
There is an article from Andrew Wammack called Killing Sacred Cows at awmi.net/reading/teaching-articles/sacred_cows/. Andredw’s solution is:
And he goes on to say, that we gave Satan the power - over everything:
Well, if we are at fault, why is the suffering and pain continuing? Hasn’t God promised to end it sometime (either in the future, or in the past as full Preterism - folks believe)?
Or - if I am a person of strong faith (as prescribed by those TV, health and prosperity evangelists)…why must I suffer, for the mistakes of collective humanity? I should have the money of Donald Trump…the health of those fitness gurus…the spiritual respect of Pope Frances…and a woman as beautiful as Marlon Monroe…but as intelligent as Madame Curie… But alas, I don’t. 
Kind of like Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science. Just one step further. Just look at matter, evil and death as illusions. We are all ideas in the mind of God.
Just put on these “rose colored glasses” and everything will be OK
Well, I have problems with “have faith, praise God and expect a miracle” and “just have the right mind orientation”. Or even, “the devil is causing all these problems”. Well, either the Devil is as powerful as God (i.e. Zoroastrianism) or God is turning a blind eye, and letting the devil cause havoc. In the first case, it means God can create a being as powerful - if not more powerful - then the creator.
Perhaps our thoughts can influence our earthly destiny. As this article by contemporary, Old Catholic church mystic - Tiffany Snow illuetates. In the article The Third Secret ‘The Secret’ Didn’t Tell You, it says this:
Look! I like the health and prosperity gospel. Like what Joel Osteen presents on TV. And spiritual healing and prayer. But not all are “instant” miracles. But all miracles happen on God’s time and in God’'s way. And we need to honor that. And these miracles won’t come any sooner, because you give a substantial contribution - to the health and prosperity preacher. That one is B.S. - pure and simple.
Or I might use the spirtual and herbal methods of the Native Americans. As well as modern medicine, spiritual healers and ancient healing modalities (i.e. homeopathy, Ayurveda, and Traditional Chinese Medicine). I believe the Native Americans, have a covenant with God. And God communicated with them before Christianity. Just as the Roman Catholic church believes, that God still has a valid covenant with Jews.
Or I join the RC Franciscans, in embracing different methods of contemplation (i.e. Buddhist mindfulness).
Yes, I am strange - but still Orthodox.
I think some folks here (not all, just some), want universalism to fit nicely. Which means, trying not to fit a square peg, into a round hole. So they come up with theological and philosophical ideas, that deviate substantially, from the current and historical, bell shaped curve.
You don’t need to say things like “the devil is responsible for all evil” or “God controls everything and there is no free will”, for universalism to work - both philosophically and theologically.
Granted. I’m a hopeful universalist. But I think some here have presented their versions - which are very close, to a theological, bell shaped curve.
Well, I have problems with “have faith, praise God and expect a miracle” and “just have the right mind orientation”. Or even, “the devil is causing all these problems”. Well, either the Devil is as powerful as God (i.e. Zoroastrianism) or God is turning a blind eye, and letting the devil cause havoc. In the first case, it means God can create a being as powerful - if not more powerful - then the creator.
Andrew Wommack & probably Joel Osteen would say Satan was given the legal deed to the earth by Adam when he was given authority by God but then handed it over to Satan by following him instead of God. Satan did offer the kingdoms of the World to Jesus when Jesus was first tested in the desert initially and Jesus never challenged Satan about that authority. But let’s not forget Satan is only a created being by God although it’s not clear whether he was Satan from the beginning or a fallen angel.
I wonder how those who buy the AW theory explain God’s fiery destruction of Sodom. Was God only allowed to intervene & fulfill His will of killing Sodom because of Abraham’s “name it & claim it” faith?
Throughout human history God has allowed many horrific events that He could have easily prevented. Some would call these sins of omission, which are just as bad as sins of commission (e.g. the flood in Noah’s day).
From that perspective, there is no point in trying to explain away God’s violence as told in the Bible. Atheists see it every day in news stories that tell them what God allowed. God has allowed an extremely violent world & history from the beginning.
Freewill advocates say that God has put the value of freewill above the need to stop the horrors of history. That is possible. Or at least part of the puzzle justifying God’s violent actions & violent lack of actions.
Alternatively deterministic advocates can explain God’s violence in & out of Scripture as being necessary evils to achieve glorious endless goals, such that the momentary sufferings of a few years or decades of life are nothing compared to millions times billions of never ending ages of heaven.
Freewill advocates say that God has put the value of freewill above the need to stop the horrors of history. That is possible. Or at least part of the puzzle justifying God’s violent actions & violent lack of actions.
Yes but also there may be valuable lessons to be learned through experiencing evil, painful as it is. “The man has become like us, knowing good and evil.” Maybe a prophetic statement?
We don’t see Adam & Eve showing any appreciation for the perfect world God had given them. How could they ever praise God for all the good around them without a knowledge of good? And without a knowledge of evil to contrast it with, how would they know what good is?
OTOH the knowledge of good & evil is like the laws of Moses. Those who strive to keep them find they are a minister of death. A death that needs a resurrection in partaking of the tree of life, Christ.
We don’t see Adam & Eve showing any appreciation for the perfect world God had given them. How could they ever praise God for all the good around them without a knowledge of good? And without a knowledge of evil to contrast it with, how would they know what good is?
Exactly, contrast is how we learn most things and so if God made us that way then what happened in Eden may not have been just an accident or happenstance!
“How do you reconcile the flood and the burning of Sodom with the person of Jesus?”
“Jesus drowns 2-year-old children & he sets them on fire?”
“It could be that God didn’t want to see little children growing up in a society like that of Sodom and Gomorrah and decided to take them home to heaven.”
“I don’t know. Just guessing. Everyone is going to die, it’s just a matter of when.”
“Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Well the picture you are painting is that He walks into a room and drowns a child. It was actually a whole society it was done to through a natural like disaster.
I’m not saying it’s pretty but you could also say God gives little kids cancer which is equally disturbing. Like I said, everyone is going to die and usually death isn’t pleasant.
“Genesis 18:20…And the Lord said,
“The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.”
“Do you believe that God can prevent horrible deaths from happening?”
“So do you believe that He allows horrible deaths because it serves a greater purpose?”
“Would you say all deaths are out of His control? They are just random or caused by the devil?”
"I will say God allowed children to be drowned in the flood and to be burned by fire:
I will also say I think it hurt Him horribly.
I will also say that Jesus was with every child that ever died.
I will also say that those children are safe in Paradise.
If you want me to say Jesus drowned them and set them on fire, I will say it. But I also say they are with Him now in perfect happiness, love, joy, light, everything beautiful and lovely.
I will say they do not remember being drowned or being set on fire.
But God does.
So in reality, who suffered more? Jesus or the drowned and burned children.
It is about the big picture."
“Who would take care of all the children assuming their parents were so evil that they had to die? Maybe God thought it more merciful to take children to heaven than leave so many without parents. Maybe they would have starved to death. Maybe God gave them a quick painless death. Again, how can we know God’s mind?”
“A lot of the OT is about spiritual truths. How much is historical is not for me to say.”
I am concerned about the escalating situation with North Korea. How should we pray?
We Christians need to distinguish between patriotism and true spirituality. I certainly respect our brave military and police (my family members now, and for centuries past, have have fought for the American military); but as an evangelical Christian, I must choose to personally follow the higher command of Christ to ‘love my enemies’ (Mt. 5:44; Lk. 6:27, 35). As a believer, I know that the real battle is against evil spiritual forces in heavenly places, not against human beings on earth. Eph. 6:12. And the weapons of our warfare are spiritual, not physical. 2 Cor. 10:4.
In Matthew 16:19, Jesus says,
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” NIV.
Or alternatively,
*“And I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be, having [already] been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be, having [already] been loosed in the heavens.” * YLT.
What is already bound in heaven? Death & curses. What is already loosed in heaven? Life & blessings. This is in line with in Matthew 6:10, “Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it [already] is in heaven.” (Note the imperative mood is used in that prayer.)
We have been created in the image of God, and our words have power (Proverbs 18:21). We have been given authority—the very keys of the kingdom. Let us ‘not neglect our so great a salvation’ (Hebrews 2:3).
“We bind and cast down the demonic powers over Pyongyang, and command that they be confused and confounded. (See, e.g., 2 Samuel 15:21, Ps. 55:9) We proclaim freedom for the gospel over North Korea, and liberty for the captives. We loose divine regime change over that land, peaceful reunification with South Korea, and freedom of speech and travel there, in Jesus’ name.”
If the Lord could peacefully reunite Germany, will He not do the same for Korea?
Blessings.
He could. But there is no guarantee.
Here’s an idea I’ve shared - on another forum thread here:
I came up with the PERFECT solution, for Kim Jong-un and North Korea. President Trump should open up a US consulate in North Korea. And appoint Dennis Rodman, as the US ambassador (or equivalent consulate title) to North Korea. It would solve ALL our problems.
I came up with the PERFECT solution, for Kim Jong-un and North Korea. President Trump should open up a US consulate in North Korea. And appoint Dennis Rodman, as the US ambassador (or equivalent consulate title) to North Korea. It would solve ALL our problems.
Good idea except that you can’t tell Rodman apart from the North Koreans so he would just get lost in the crowd!
I really like the idea of Christus Victor, and I reject PSA, but doesn’t the former give satan too much power? What should God have/need to “pay/deal” in ANY terms with a being like this? “From whence cometh his powers” (to wax a bit poetic KJV style…)
I’ve never heard a good answer to this…it would only make sense if satan was an actual threat to God and His creation…in an absolute sense, but surely he is not…he is not God…he did not exist BEFORE as God did…
So what’s going on here; as an objective ORIGIN story for satan/evil… how does this not become a cosmic comic book if we accept that God is bartering with the devil (whether He claims total victory or not?)
I totally reject Lucifer, it’s a hoax and I’ve put the nail in that coffin here (see my comment under the answer too)
…so what does that leave us with?? I really want to hear some of your beliefs/understandings on this. Thanks.
I also reject penal substitutionary atonement, and have the same problems with Christus Victor.
All I know is what the NT writers gave as the reason for the Anointed One’s death:
The logistics as to how Jesus’ death delivers us from wrongdoing, I leave for others to ponder. I don’t think the New Testament writers provide the answer.