Is it foolish to call God, “Father”?

[Gnostic_Bishop]

DL,

I had not entered this dialogue because like many others it seemed like you assumed a mistaken caricature of the outlook of your readers here. Unfortunately, your response to Cindy appears to confirm that you don’t grasp how not seeking to understand your audience weakens your credibility. When you’re invited to set forth reasons for accepting your view as ‘better,’ and you lead with "because it’s better (theology), or just declare that your beliefs alone are not “myths. Obviously. No argument.” you surely realize you’ll be seen as offering no basis at all.

But the greatest way you undermine your persuasiveness, is that you imply that we on the forum are simply “immoral,” don’t believe in full equality, don’t believe in supporting the weak, in duty to family (on land or sea?), or in children burying their fathers. This only tells your readers that you lack knowledge of the options and of who we are. You can repeat such charges over and over, but if your audience sees you as totally mistaken on what he knows best (i.e. what he personally believes), he or she will tend to think that you are ill-informed by many illusions. Thus one does know how to seriously engage your gnosticism, without addressing so many mistaken assumptions on which it appears to rest. I’m sorry I don’t have a more helpful solution than others, only their suggestion that you bring a gnostic critique to what you actually find professed here.

All the best to you,

Bob Wilson

I said a better theology and meant it.

The options whose knowledge you say I lack are immoral so if you like those -----

If you think that it is a good policy for fathers to needlessly bury their sons then -----------

Regards
DL

[Gnostic_Bishop]

Thanks, Bob. You’ve said it every bit as well as or better than I could. GB does not appear to want to believe that we believe what we say that we believe.

I don’t know what to say, GB. I don’t believe the inferior doctrines you seem to want me to believe so that you can come to the rescue and set me straight by telling me to believe certain “other and different” things that I in fact already, as a Christian, believe, and have told you I believe. What’s more, pretty much everyone else here also believes these things that you apparently want to convert us to believing. You seem to think you know my beliefs better than I know them. Don’t you find that a bit patronizing? Is it because you see me as a poor weak woman of feeble brain who needs to be rescued from the delusion that she already believes certain things that you want to teach her?

Surely there must be more to your gnosticism than what you’ve said here. Surely there are more controversial beliefs you’re not putting forth yet – beliefs that would require a lot more persuasion to get people to accept. We already accept the things you’ve said. What else do you want to “teach” us to believe?

One of your more controversial beliefs is that NONE of our Christian scriptures are literally true. That I do not believe, and I see no reason to believe it just because you say it’s so. It offers me no benefits that I can see.

Perhaps you want to add the feminine to the Godhead? I have a fairly strong suspicion that the Holy Spirit is more feminine than masculine, and in this group I doubt that’s terribly controversial. (That is IF one can ascribe either sex to the Godhead with any coherence.)

Maybe you feel that our whole belief system is based on an imaginary God with an imaginary Son and an imaginary Holy Spirit who’s no different in kind from humans (aside from being imaginary) because humans invented all gods. You perhaps (for some reason) feel it is beneficial to humans to believe in a God they know to be fully human because created by humans. In fact, less than a human because imaginary. Or perhaps more than any single human because a sort of Jungian collective creation? (But nevertheless, still a product of our collective imaginations?)

I believe it is tradition for gnostics to believe that the material world is in some way evil or inferior or a thing to be risen above. Do you believe this? I actually don’t. I think the material world is a highly useful construct, a thing of beauty, and that it will always be maintained as an environment in which to interact, though I suspect we will no longer be as constrained by it as we currently are.

The Gnostic Gospels were written much later (according to historians) than the four gospels included in (as far as I know) all traditional, orthodox, catholic, and protestant canons, which are much earlier and closer to the source, and have fared much better in survivorship partially due to the many copies which were made. However wonderful the GGs might have been, the truth is that many words and even whole passages have had to be supplied by translators. This, and the late date of their making, not to mention the highly mythical quality of their stories, somewhat undermines their credibility as eye-witness accounts. But then that doesn’t matter anyway, does it, as you apparently don’t believe any of it really, historically, literally happened.

In addition, I’ve been led to believe (perhaps falsely?) that gnostics believe the things done in the body don’t matter because the physical body is irredeemably corrupt, and sexual indiscretions, immoderate consumption of drink, drugs, etc, and other such things as many would call sin, could hardly make things worse. I’m not sure how far one can go with this. Does it extend to deception? Stealing? Maybe even to violent acts? I don’t know how far it goes, and I doubt it does extend to violence, but perhaps you could clarify.

It’s been my understanding that historically, gnostics have relied on superior mystical knowledge in order to rise above the physical realm. You’ve already told me that gnostics are by nature universalistic. I’m sure that YOU are universalistic since you say so, and that the gnostics you know are as well, but I’m not sure that’s a historical gnostic position. Perhaps modern-day gnostics are building their own belief system, or seeing the old beliefs in different ways? Nothing wrong with that. I’m just not sure I believe that it’s always been that way.

So . . . I think maybe there’s more to your gnosticism than you’re letting on. There must be something about it that’s different from what the majority of us here on EU believe, or you wouldn’t keep trying to “convert” us – since we already believe in most of the things you keep accusing us of NOT believing, and we already disbelieve most of the things you accuse us of wrongly believing. So what is it? Aside from the “everything is myth” bit, what’s the hard stuff?

This B.S. is not worth an answer.

Of course there were many Gnostic sects with varying beliefs.

You asked me why you should look into Gnostic Christianity and I gave my reasons.

I will speak to those and not to weird ancient beliefs of our old myths which we admit are myths and weird.

You seem to think I want to convert you. Not so. I sell a method for you be all you can be spiritually. Nothing more. Keep your belief. I don’t care. Just try to internalize them to push your apotheosis.

God is there for all and it does not really matter what you believe as long as you can take it into yourself.

Regards
DL

[Bob_Wilson]

DL,

My communication skills appear poor. I’m saying, repeating that your theology is “better” because You really “meant” it is better, just sounds to me like begging the question. Repeating that my beliefs are “immoral,” without offering any basis I can recognize, sounds like offering nothing. Repeating that I think it’s good for “fathers to needlessly bury their sons” is so far from my beliefs, it sounds like you prefer to tilt against straw men. And calling requests for clarification ignorable “B.S.” only leaves me still baffled as to what substance you want others to consider.

[anon12438761]

This might help us clarify, in order to understand, what you are saying, GB. 7 questions that all worldviews can answer, and your answers will go a LONG way in getting your message across. If they cannot be answered, there probably is not a worldview as such. From James Sire: (I’ve edited some of them)

1. What is the nature of external reality, that is, the world around us?
   a) created or autonomous
   b) chaotic or orderly
   c)matter or spirit

2. What is a human being?
   a) a highly complex machine
   b)a sleeping god
   c)a person made in the image of God
   d)a naked ape.

3. What happens to a person at death?
   a)personal extinction
   b)transformation to a higher state
   c) reincarnation
   d)departure to a shadowy existence on “the other side.”

4. Why is it possible to know anything at all?
   a)we are made in the image of an all-knowing God
   b)consciousness and rationality developed under the contingencies of survival in a long process of evolution.

5. How do we know what is right and wrong?
   a)we are made in the image of a God whose character is good
   b)right and wrong are determined by human choice alone or what feels good
   c)the notions simply developed under an impetus toward cultural or physical survival.

6. What is the meaning of human history?
   a)to realize the purposes of God or the god
   b)to make a paradise on earth
   c)to prepare a people for a life in community with a loving and holy God

7.What personal, life-orienting core commitments are consistent with this worldview?

These are actually questions that would help in the ‘introduce yourself’ section of the forum as well, to help us get oriented to one another.

GB - would you please choose the answers that best fit your knowledge - not so we can criticize, but so we can answer you on the same grounds.
Thanks
Dave

Very insightful persons, of which this forum if rife, will point out, quite correctly, that there should be a choice, namely:

3. e) ReinTarnation, if you’re a cowboy…

[Gnostic_Bishop]

DL,

My communication skills appear poor. I’m saying, repeating that your theology is “better” because You really “meant” it is better, just sounds to me like begging the question. Repeating that my beliefs are “immoral,” without offering any basis I can recognize, sounds like offering nothing. Repeating that I think it’s good for “fathers to needlessly bury their sons” is so far from my beliefs, it sounds like you prefer to tilt against straw men. And calling requests for clarification ignorable “B.S.” only leaves me still baffled as to what substance you want others to consider.

I will not try to double guess what my audience thinks. I do not do psychobabble.

We have a simple O.P. that says that the story given in scriptures is immoral. If you disagree show why. If you agree fine.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic_Bishop]

This might help us clarify, in order to understand, what you are saying, GB. 7 questions that all worldviews can answer, and your answers will go a LONG way in getting your message across. If they cannot be answered, there probably is not a worldview as such. From James Sire: (I’ve edited some of them)

1. What is the nature of external reality, that is, the world around us?
   a) created or autonomous
   b) chaotic or orderly
   c)matter or spirit

autonomous
both
both but spirit is not in the sense you mean.

2. What is a human being?
   a) a highly complex machine
   b)a sleeping god
   c)a person made in the image of God
   d)a naked ape.

a biological god that can create God.

3. What happens to a person at death?
   a)personal extinction
   b)transformation to a higher state
   c) reincarnation
   d)departure to a shadowy existence on “the other side.”

b & d

4. Why is it possible to know anything at all?
   a)we are made in the image of an all-knowing God
   b)consciousness and rationality developed under the contingencies of survival in a long process of evolution.

b

5. How do we know what is right and wrong?
   a)we are made in the image of a God whose character is good
   b)right and wrong are determined by human choice alone or what feels good
   c)the notions simply developed under an impetus toward cultural or physical survival.

b & C

6. What is the meaning of human history?
   a)to realize the purposes of God or the god
   b)to make a paradise on earth
   c)to prepare a people for a life in community with a loving and holy God

To learn and pass it on.

7.What personal, life-orienting core commitments are consistent with this worldview?

Keeping the mind open and flexible.

These are actually questions that would help in the ‘introduce yourself’ section of the forum as well, to help us get oriented to one another.

GB - would you please choose the answers that best fit your knowledge - not so we can criticize, but so we can answer you on the same grounds.
Thanks
Dave

Very insightful persons, of which this forum if rife, will point out, quite correctly, that there should be a choice, namely:

3. e) ReinTarnation, if you’re a cowboy…

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL

[anon12438761]

You’re welcome, thanks for your responses.

[Cindy_Skillman]

So, GB . . . I can only assume from your scornful, superior response that either you cannot answer my questions, or that you choose not to because of some reason – that it would reveal perhaps more than you feel is prudent to immediately disclose? If you’re “selling,” I’m not buying. I don’t see you as the next cool Rabbi to follow after. I just don’t. If you want to approach as a fellow traveler and have a mutually respectful, non-deceitful conversation, that’s always welcome. As it is, I still don’t know what it IS you’re “selling.” My immediate reaction to salespeople who approach me with something that will “change my life” is to throw up the fortifications. It’s hard to trust a salesman – way it is. When you come out with flat statements that amount to “Because I said so,” that’s even less convincing.

[Bob_Wilson]

Bishop,

I will not double guess what you think, and I hate psychobabble. I just have an O.A. that Jesus is a profound teacher who has helped me a lot. If you disagree, show why. If you agree fine.

Regards,

Bob W.

[Gnostic_Bishop]

So, GB . . . I can only assume from your scornful, superior response that either you cannot answer my questions, or that you choose not to because of some reason – that it would reveal perhaps more than you feel is prudent to immediately disclose? If you’re “selling,” I’m not buying. I don’t see you as the next cool Rabbi to follow after. I just don’t. If you want to approach as a fellow traveler and have a mutually respectful, non-deceitful conversation, that’s always welcome. As it is, I still don’t know what it IS you’re “selling.” My immediate reaction to salespeople who approach me with something that will “change my life” is to throw up the fortifications. It’s hard to trust a salesman – way it is. When you come out with flat statements that amount to “Because I said so,” that’s even less convincing.

Unfortunately, I lost track. Apologies.

What question please?

I never say just because I said so. If I did I would have used something like this bit.

youtube.com/watch?v=QriZJ-X3wbU

Regards
DL

[Gnostic_Bishop]

Bishop,

I will not double guess what you think, and I hate psychobabble. I just have an O.A. that Jesus is a profound teacher who has helped me a lot. If you disagree, show why. If you agree fine.

Regards,

Bob W.

Which Jesus? There is more than one I the bible.

But let’s forget the esoteric one for now as most know little of that one thanks to churches not teaching what he actually taught.

Your Jesus I do not like because of his policies.
Some are definitely anti-love. Like his divorce policy and his forgiveness policy.

There are other issues.

youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgV … r_embedded

If you believe in the Trinity, can you see Jesus killing the first born or Egypt after hardening Pharaoh’s softening heart that would have let the people go?

Regards
DL

[Cindy_Skillman]

Go back up and re-read, GB. The questions you said you wouldn’t bother answering.

[Bob_Wilson]

DL,

Thanks for clarifying! You say a central reason you reject the Bible’s Jesus is because of his “forgiveness policy.” To what policy are you referring? I’ve found extending forgiveness to be freeing, and I am happily thankful when others forgive me. What is it you so dislike about it?

Blessings to you,
Bob

[Gnostic_Bishop]

Go back up and re-read, GB. The questions you said you wouldn’t bother answering.

God does not change his mind and neither do I.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic_Bishop]

DL,

Thanks for clarifying! You say a central reason you reject the Bible’s Jesus is because of his “forgiveness policy.” To what policy are you referring? I’ve found extending forgiveness to be freeing, and I am happily thankful when others forgive me. What is it you so dislike about it?

Blessings to you,
Bob

As a Universalist, the notion of needing salvation or forgiveness is silly to me. If all are destined for heaven, what do we need with salvation or forgiveness. The doors of heaven are always opened to all and none of us are ever condemned by God. Do you agree?

I recognize the benefits you speak of in forgiving and in the seeking of forgiveness but that seeking should be directed at the victim. Not some God or Jesus that cannot be victimized by sins that are man against man.
I like the Jewish thinking on this.

thepowerofforgiveness.com/pd … veness.pdf

Once a victim forgive the offender, that is it. To suggest that the sinner must now also beg a second forgiveness for only one offence is to ask for double payment and that is not a moral way to go.

Regards
DL

[Cindy_Skillman]

Well, you did ask to which question I was referring, DL, which seemed a bit puzzling, since you’d already said you wouldn’t be answering my questions. And that’s okay. Honestly, if you don’t know the answers it’s perfectly honorable to say so, or if you only know how to answer this or that one, that’s also fine. Or if you just don’t think the answers would not further your goals, well, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

They were honest questions, not in any way meant to trip you up. I do not already “know the answers” as some do when they ask pseudo-questions that are really challenges in disguise. It just seems strange that you keep saying things we already agree with (mostly) and then you seem to think we need to change our minds and become gnostics. If we already agree with just about everything you stand for, what’s to change? Just a label? On the other hand, if there’s more on offer and we don’t yet know about it, and we need to know and accept it in order to become gnostics, and you’d like us to become gnostics, then maybe you’d like to lay it on the table?

It’s interesting that you’re not open to changing your mind, DL. I think you might want to reconsider that (change your mind about not ever changing your mind ). I can’t count the number of things I’ve been wrong about and because of that, have had to change my mind. Changing your mind when you see you’re mistaken is a time-honored, much repeated, interchange in the road toward wisdom. And actually, scripturally, you’d be hard pressed to defend the view that God doesn’t change His mind. He doesn’t CHANGE, but we have quite a few accounts of Him (apparently at least) changing His mind about this or that, based on changing circumstances – such as the population of Nineveh repenting at Jonah’s preaching, for one.

[Bob_Wilson]

As a Universalist, the notion of needing salvation or forgiveness is silly to me. If all are destined for heaven, what do we need with salvation or forgiveness. The doors of heaven are always opened to all and none of us are ever condemned by God. Do you agree?

I recognize the benefits you speak of in forgiving and in the seeking of forgiveness but that seeking should be directed at the victim. Not some God or Jesus that cannot be victimized by sins that are man against man. I like the Jewish thinking on this.

Once a victim forgive the offender, that is it. To suggest that the sinner must now also beg a second forgiveness for only one offence is to ask for double payment and that is not a moral way to go.

Hi DL! I really like your beautifully clear explanation of why “needing forgiveness” seems for you “silly!” It stimulates my own reflection.

We agree on the “benefits of forgiving and seeking forgiveness” in relationships! Indeed, I find this blessing of releasing our vindictiveness toward those who hurt us is what Jesus emphasizes, often encouraging us to do it generously out of receiving God’s gracious love in which we live. Of course, it is precisely the logic of enjoying this ‘forgiveness’ of ‘God’ which makes little sense to you.

You speak of everyone going to heaven, and God presenting no barriers to that. I actually find Jesus uninterested in us going to heaven, desiring to see people really experience “life” now (and later). And he appears to see what most religious folk see (Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, etc), that the Reality in our universe appears to involve a law of cause and effect, where our (moral) choices make a difference in what kind of ‘life’ we experience. And like him, I do not find enjoyment of this blessing to be universal, but that many experience painful alienation from it.

For Christians, ‘God’ refers to this transcendent Reality behind everything. They see God as a Power that pursues goodness (hence the imagery that God is like a good father). Yet God’s goodness is perceived to also imply opposing the evil harm we do to one another. And this is their conception of what is behind the universal experience that our choices seem to lead to reaping and sowing different consequences. This also explains the sense in which Christians would say that when we violate one finite creature, we also transgress the transcendent Reality called God. We are saying that our destructive choices do not foster a healthy relationship with that Ground of our being (or God).

Of course, if you’re confident that no such transcendent Reality exists, it would indeed be “silly” to have any positive interest in this. But the desire of many spiritual people is to know that despite their transgressions of the Ultimate Reality underneath our existence (God), and the lessons they may need to learn, that they are still able to be in a blessed relationship with this Ground of all being. And God’s “forgiveness” refers to the assured provision of such a gracious relationship as we acknowledge our failures and seek to align our life with the way God intends for us.

For me, the way that Jesus manifests this divine love and grace, or forgiveness, despite my common & stubborn weakness, is not silly at all, but encourages me in my confidence of great blessing & growth. I realize my efforts to describe a Christian view of forgiveness may be unclear, or sound quite problematical to you, and I’d welcome any reactions or questions you may have to my sense of why such grace is just plain terrific.

Bests regards to you,

Bob W.

[Gnostic_Bishop]

Well, you did ask to which question I was referring, DL, which seemed a bit puzzling, since you’d already said you wouldn’t be answering my questions. And that’s okay. Honestly, if you don’t know the answers it’s perfectly honorable to say so, or if you only know how to answer this or that one, that’s also fine. Or if you just don’t think the answers would not further your goals, well, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

They were honest questions, not in any way meant to trip you up. I do not already “know the answers” as some do when they ask pseudo-questions that are really challenges in disguise. It just seems strange that you keep saying things we already agree with (mostly) and then you seem to think we need to change our minds and become gnostics. If we already agree with just about everything you stand for, what’s to change? Just a label? On the other hand, if there’s more on offer and we don’t yet know about it, and we need to know and accept it in order to become gnostics, and you’d like us to become gnostics, then maybe you’d like to lay it on the table?

It’s interesting that you’re not open to changing your mind, DL. I think you might want to reconsider that (change your mind about not ever changing your mind ). I can’t count the number of things I’ve been wrong about and because of that, have had to change my mind. Changing your mind when you see you’re mistaken is a time-honored, much repeated, interchange in the road toward wisdom. And actually, scripturally, you’d be hard pressed to defend the view that God doesn’t change His mind. He doesn’t CHANGE, but we have quite a few accounts of Him (apparently at least) changing His mind about this or that, based on changing circumstances – such as the population of Nineveh repenting at Jonah’s preaching, for one.

All fiction and myth and we likely cannot interpret them well anymore thanks to all the re-writes. That is partly why I do not care which myth one uses.

I do not care to convert anyone particularly. I sell a message to seek God internally using whatever myth or belief you have. It is the activation of your pineal gland and your higher mind that I seek and God does the rest.
God makes people Gnostics and Gnostic Christians. Not me.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic_Bishop]

As a Universalist, the notion of needing salvation or forgiveness is silly to me. If all are destined for heaven, what do we need with salvation or forgiveness. The doors of heaven are always opened to all and none of us are ever condemned by God. Do you agree?

I recognize the benefits you speak of in forgiving and in the seeking of forgiveness but that seeking should be directed at the victim. Not some God or Jesus that cannot be victimized by sins that are man against man. I like the Jewish thinking on this.

Once a victim forgive the offender, that is it. To suggest that the sinner must now also beg a second forgiveness for only one offence is to ask for double payment and that is not a moral way to go.

Hi DL! I really like your beautifully clear explanation of why “needing forgiveness” seems for you “silly!” It stimulates my own reflection.

We agree on the “benefits of forgiving and seeking forgiveness” in relationships! Indeed, I find this blessing of releasing our vindictiveness toward those who hurt us is what Jesus emphasizes, often encouraging us to do it generously out of receiving God’s gracious love in which we live. Of course, it is precisely the logic of enjoying this ‘forgiveness’ of ‘God’ which makes little sense to you.

You speak of everyone going to heaven, and God presenting no barriers to that. I actually find Jesus uninterested in us going to heaven, desiring to see people really experience “life” now (and later). And he appears to see what most religious folk see (Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, etc), that the Reality in our universe appears to involve a law of cause and effect, where our (moral) choices make a difference in what kind of ‘life’ we experience. And like him, I do not find enjoyment of this blessing to be universal, but that many experience painful alienation from it.

For Christians, ‘God’ refers to this transcendent Reality behind everything. They see God as a Power that pursues goodness (hence the imagery that God is like a good father). Yet God’s goodness is perceived to also imply opposing the evil harm we do to one another. And this is their conception of what is behind the universal experience that our choices seem to lead to reaping and sowing different consequences. This also explains the sense in which Christians would say that when we violate one finite creature, we also transgress the transcendent Reality called God. We are saying that our destructive choices do not foster a healthy relationship with that Ground of our being (or God).

Of course, if you’re confident that no such transcendent Reality exists, it would indeed be “silly” to have any positive interest in this. But the desire of many spiritual people is to know that despite their transgressions of the Ultimate Reality underneath our existence (God), and the lessons they may need to learn, that they are still able to be in a blessed relationship with this Ground of all being. And God’s “forgiveness” refers to the assured provision of such a gracious relationship as we acknowledge our failures and seek to align our life with the way God intends for us.

For me, the way that Jesus manifests this divine love and grace, or forgiveness, despite my common & stubborn weakness, is not silly at all, but encourages me in my confidence of great blessing & growth. I realize my efforts to describe a Christian view of forgiveness may be unclear, or sound quite problematical to you, and I’d welcome any reactions or questions you may have to my sense of why such grace is just plain terrific.

Bests regards to you,

Bob W.

If you wish to believe in a sugar daddy throwing grace around, go ahead.

But then you would have to wonder why God would fix a hangnail on someone while allowing 10s of millions to die needlessly.

I don’t care how you see God, transcendent reality or whatever. I just sell the idea that you can find him internally if you seek him there.

Regards
DL

[Bob_Wilson]

If you wish to believe in a sugar daddy throwing grace around, go ahead.
I don’t care how you see God, transcendent reality or whatever. I just sell the idea that you can find him internally if you seek him there.

DL,
Thanks. You do have an curious perception. If I too perceived Jesus as selling a “sugar daddy,” I’d totally reject him too. I’m fine with you selling your own Deity who’s apparently without the ‘crazy’ grace that Jesus “threw around.” I am glad that what you find inside you, or as you said to Cindy, what is in your pineal gland, brings you such satisfaction. But since I experience that the rich grace Jesus spoke of has brought rich joy into my life, I can’t see what would attract me toward seeking what your say that you are selling.

All the best to you,
Bob