Is It Psychopathic To Believe In Eternal Punishment?

[St_Michael]

Yes we are rooted and grounded in love and hope being motivated by such things. But we are also grounded in the fear of turning away from the love and beauty of God with the fear of separation:

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.…Matthew 5:27-29

“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. - Luke 12:4-5

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire - Luke 3:9

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - Hebrew 10:31

“All Things” is a reference to the heavens and earth. After all that’s what the merism means. The lake of fire isn’t included in the “all things” made new

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

In the new heaven and earth Christ is “all in all” All flesh will worship Christ there. Those that are in heaven and earth and those that are resurrected from under the earth. All flesh. But not those who are in the lake of fire:

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

Those in the Lake of fire aren’t included in “all mankind”

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. ~ Daniel 12:2

[St_Michael]

Moreover it follows logically. In heaven we will be complete in union and marriage with Christ. Love is eternal and love always protects. It follows that hell is eternal. For there has to be something in hell for God to protect His children from. Part of justice is to protect.

God is love

Love is eternal

Love always protects

It follows that hell is eternal

C.S. Lewis was correct. Hell is supported by reason.

[St_Michael]

We know that universalism is false. I guess you could say that humans are turned to ash while Satan and his angels receive the lake of fire forever.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

We know that universalism is false. I guess you could say that humans are turned to ash while Satan and his angels receive the lake of fire forever.

It depends on whether you look at the Roman Catholic Magisterium - for the answer. Or how Greek language can be interpreted. But as to the forever part of Satan, we find this at Satan’s Death

The English phrase for ever and ever in verse 10 is a gross mis-translation of the original Greek phrase eis tous aeonas ton aionon, which means, ‘to the ages of the ages’. A more correct translation of verse 10 is as follows:

“And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were. And shall be tormented day and night until the age of ages.”

Satan will not endure everlasting punishing; he will have his existence terminated; he will cease to exist forever. The age spoken of in verse 10 is the termination of an age. It is the time when the existence of physical humans on earth will end. Moreover, it is a time when a new age will begin and the mystery of what God is doing here on earth will be revealed.

[St_Michael]

Randy,

The word can also mean forever and ever. Moreover part of justice is to protect. If there’s no one in hell there’s nothing to protect from. Love is eternal and love always protects. It follows hell is eternal.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Randy,

The word can also mean forever and ever. Moreover part of justice is to protect. If there’s no one in hell there’s nothing to protect from. Love is eternal and love always protects. It follows hell is eternal.

I go with the former meaning. Somethings you have to pick a position and roll with it. Whatever works for you.

[St_Michael]

Randy,

We know your interpretation isn’t correct. In heaven there is perfect love and perfect justice. Part of justice is to protect. Love is eternal and love always protects. It follows that hell is eternal. For if there is no evil in hell there’s nothing for God to protect His children from.

[anon47460357]

Love always protects

This premise is incomplete. It should read, “Love always protects when necessary.”

When there is nothing to protect from, love does not cease to exist.

Consider the Holy Trinity before the creation. Nothing existed except for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of the divine Persons eternally loves the other divine Persons. None of the divine Persons, of course, protects the other divine Persons (and even more so when nothing other than the Holy Trinity existed!).

The protective quality of love, therefore, does not indicate the existence of Hell.

[St_Michael]

Yes it does because in heaven there is perfect love and perfect justice. Part of justice is to protect. Love is eternal and love always protects. It follows that hell is eternal. For if there is no evil in hell there’s nothing for God to protect His children from.

[St_Michael]

There was no “before” creation. The universe came into existence simultaneously with the Trinity. God is outside time. An example is how Christ was slain some 2000 years ago. Yet the Bible says He was slain from the foundation of the world. All past, present and future are “present” to God in His timeless “NOW”

[anon47460357]

The universe came into existence simultaneously with the Trinity.

How does (for example) God the Holy Spirit protect God the Father?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

@St. Michael

Randy,

We know your interpretation isn’t correct. In heaven there is perfect love and perfect justice. Part of justice is to protect. Love is eternal and love always protects. It follows that hell is eternal. For if there is no evil in hell there’s nothing for God to protect His children from.

I think you are beginning to sound like Eusebius . The answer I gave is from an “established theological position.” Folks see things in differ ways. I’m presenting the conditional immortality viewpoint. You can side with a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant denomination, TV evangelist, etc., answer. I would say it’s a different way of seeing. We see now though a glass darkly, as Saint Paul says.

If your interpretation works for you - then run with it.

And why is a place (actually, it is a state - which is also the Eastern Orthodox view) - something full of evil - allowed to exist? When there is a place (again a state, from the Eastern Orthodox perspective) full of perfect love

I still work on the bland men and the elephant theory.

[St_Michael]

Well, in heaven the Father protects Christ and His bride from evil. In heaven perfect love and perfect justice exist. Part of justice is to protect. Perfect love always protects. They are being protected from evil in the Lake of Fire. The Lake of fire isn’t part of the new creation.

[St_Michael]

Randy,

You still haven’t refuted the argument. Saying people see things differently doesn’t even touch what I said.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Randy,

You still haven’t refuted the argument. Saying people see things differently doesn’t even touch what I said.

No, I haven’t. I’m too busy tonight, watching non-redeeming shows - about Vampires and Zombies. I need a rest, from all this “intellectual activity”. If your argument works for you, run with it. Else, join this clinic. They do charge a fee - for an argument.

or youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

[anon47460357]

I hope I’ll be forgiven for noting that this thread’s argument reminds me of my favorite disproof of God:

Premise 1: God is love.

Premise 2: Love is blind.

Premise 3: Stevie Wonder is blind.

Premise 4: Stevie Wonder is not God.

Conclusion: Therefore, God does not exist.

[St_Michael]

Geofrey

You still haven’t touched the argument. The Bible says that love always protects and that part of justice is to protect. If there is nothing in hell there’s nothing for God to protect His children from. God is outside time. He’s across time. The Bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Yet it happened some two thousand years ago. God is “present” in all past present and future. His protective love and justice has been “always” going on in His timeless “NOW”

[St_Michael]

Randy,

I guess the argument stands then.

[anon47460357]

St. Michael, I have not seen your explanation of how God the Holy Spirit supposedly protects God the Father.

[St_Michael]

Oh! I see what you are asking me now. The love between the persons of God isn’t exactly like it is for us. God esteems, has affections, takes pleasure in the Son. Likewise the Son for the Father. This reverberates between the two forming overflowing agape (Spirit). This one circle of love makes the one true God who is agape. Since it’s agape that always protects we can say it’s the one true God who protects us. You still haven’t touched the argument though. The Bible says that love always protects and that part of justice is to protect. If there is nothing in hell there’s nothing for God to protect His children from. Therefore evil is eternal and hell is eternal. God is outside time. He’s across time. The Bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Yet it happened some two thousand years ago. God is “present” in all past present and future. His protective love and justice has been “always” going on in His timeless “NOW”

Here’s a way of putting it by Jonathan Edwards

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all…

Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, His authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of His goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.

If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in His providence, of Godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness so ever He bestowed, His goodness would not be so much prized and admired…

So, evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which He made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of His love. And if the knowledge of Him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect. - Jonathan Edwards