The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is Jesus God or What?

Theology Christology
#221

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has the entry for ‘Trinity’ by Dale Tuggy. ESSENTIAL reading if you want to understand the issues and not just mouth platitudes. plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/

An excellent lecture on the lost history of early universalism by Dr. Tuggy: youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=8 … r_embedded

There are some excellent articles on this and other trinitarian questions at this blog: trinities.org/blog/

The essays I’ve read are neither trite nor irrelevant but, of course, I have not yet read them all.

If you’re up to it, philosophically, the many serious logical problems with the purported trinity have been addressed by Bill Vallicella (MavPhil). You can start with this post, and follow the various branches (be warned that the philosophical arguments in some of the posts are very intricate, subtle, and use a specialized vocabulary. If you have any training or reading in Aristotle, you will probably not have much problem) maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/ … radox.html
To see all the posts, search ‘trinity’ in the search box, of all places :slight_smile:

#222

I watched the video you posted of Tuggy. Really very good, well presented, informative in a suggestive rather than declarative way, objective facts based in evidence for the most part and I appreciate that approach.

I read the web-site, and found it to be mostly a rehash of philosophical arguments I have seen for 35 years, with hardly a word of scripture for support anywhere. I think Aristotle stated some solid things on reasoning, but unless the logic is set within a paradigm defined by the scriptures, is just runs around in circles endlessly.

I did like what the author wrote about Mysterianism as a meta philosophy(philosophy about a philosophy) because I think any perspective that seeks to absolutely define the Godhead intrinsicly involves a little Mysterianism -because the nature of the relationship between the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit is a truth with some fuzzy edges, seen to some extent through a glass darkly(imo).

Mysterians just ask you to accept their viewpoint based on the holiness of their particular perspective and the history by which it ascended to predominance among their “initiated” LOL. I have no problem with this as long as they are not making everyone else an infidel or an idiot for not receiving by faith their mysterious declarations of assumptions.

I have a simple presentation on the Godhead, creation and the restoration of all things at this URL 1drv.ms/1yGLIXg

It is just my perspective in brief.

#223

I enjoyed your presentation very much. I’ll go over it again more slowly when I get a little more time. Thanks.

#224

I am working on a more in depth animated version. :slight_smile:

#225

Here is a scripture-based and well-presented argument by a Christian Monotheist. Apologies if this has been referenced previously.
It’s a 25 page pdf so will take more than a few minutes’ reading - then again, it’s an important presentation and worth the time imho.

christianmonotheism.com/medi … usBook.pdf

#226

This is an old thread and a longggggg thread. But the question, “Is Jesus God?” all depends upon what is meant by “God.” Which of the following does the question mean?

  1. Is Jesus the same individual as the Father?
  2. Is God a Trinity of divine Individuals, and is Jesus part of that Trinity?
  3. Is Jesus of divine essence because He was begotten by God?

I reject #1 and #2 on the basis that Jesus addressed His Father as “the only true God” and then indicated Himself as someone other than “the only true God”:

(John 17:3 ESV) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Notice that little conjunction “and”? If Jesus had considered Himself as “the only true God” He wouldn’t have added “and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

So my belief (like that of the early Christians) is that God’s only-begotten Son was begotten by the Father before all ages, the first of God’s acts. (See the letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians in which he affirms that He was “begotten by the Father before all ages”),

So this is the sense in which Jesus is God. Your father who begat you was a man, and so you are man (in the generic sense whether you are male or female). And so the Father was God and so the Son whom He begat was also God in the generic sense.

This is how I understand John 1:1 Jesus was with God (the Father) and because He was begotten by God He was God generically, a member of the “God Family” so to speak.

#227

So Don will you conciliate that many times Jesus himself said that he came to show people the way to God…

#228

Actually He said that He was the way to God. :slight_smile:

#229

Quote please?

#230

Really?

#231

Oh Yes…

#232

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

#233

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So Don will you conciliate that many times Jesus himself said that he came to show people the way to God…

Which part of this am I wrong?

#234

So you sgree, that’s good.:grin:
The way to God is only through Jesus.

#235

I’m not sure I srgree, but if you are trying to say that Jesus came to show people the way to God, I will Agree :thinking:

#236

He came to say that only he is the way to God, not to show some other way. Don’t see the problem.

#237

Well, I’ll have to ask, are all non Jesus believers unable to have any relationship with God?

#238

I quoted Him, that’s it for now.

#239

I realize that was a bad ass question, but hey, in the real world, that is a question that an evangelical should be able to answer.

#240

I did not say I couldn’t answer, Chad - I just said that was it for now. Talk soon.