Yes, thanks, I agree with all you say, including that some Jews have read Isaiah as Messianic!
Still, lacking evidence that first century Jews generally expected Israel would kill their Messiah, such a reading of Israel’s deadly response to their Messiah and his demise, would seem a quite different image of what their kingly deliverer would do than most interpreters (such as N.T. Wright) that I find most illuminating assume about what is happening in the New Testament accounts.
I quoted the words of Jesus Himself. Do you believe that He is the Son of God as He claimed? If so, surely He knew whether or not He was the Messiah, and I quoted the apostle John who recorded the words of the Lord Jesus in which He affirmed that He is the Messiah:
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.” (John 4:25,26)
@Paidion To be honest, I really don’t know right now. Just because someone claims to be something, doesn’t mean that it’s true. Why I am so concerned is that the OT has such a different view of the Messiah (or so it seems this way). There were many false prophets around during Jesus’ time who were performing all sorts of miracles, so the only way that the Jews could know who the Messiah was, was to look at the scriptures.
Also, I find it interesting that John the Baptist claims that he is not Elijah.
Malachi 3:1
3 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
John 1:21
21“Then who are you?” they inquired. “Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”
Yes, that is certainly correct.
But Jesus is not merely “someone”; He is the unique Son of God, begotten by God before all ages as His first act. Thus all of Jesus’ words and statements and claims are true.
Pretty good debate here on the topic. If you have the time, it is a good watch and gets both sides of the story well.
I’ve been watching Judaism vs Christianity debates lately and its been very eye opening for me. For all of them that I’ve watched so far, the Christian pastors are beating right around the bush while the Rabbi’s are taking the verses head on and using the Tanak to form their views. Honestly, it seems like we Christians are just rehearsing the same monologue over and over again, and are so entrenched in our own bias. I don’t claim to have all the answers, but If you spend a little bit of time on this, Im sure you won’t regret it.
@mcarans Thats just a nice way of confirming your own beliefs. Attributing it to be some mystical, unsearchable thing is exactly what Christians do when it gets too hard for them to do some actual research.
So far…
Also Im just talking about the topic of whether Jesus was the Messiah or not.
Okay thats fair then. I think we just differ in our ways of looking at scripture.
This one i have heard the most & i’ll check into these verses , but my understanding with this is that it’s not about “world peace” but peace between man & God.
Some like gathering the Jews in Israel & building the temple are conditional on the Jews believing Jesus is the Messiah which mostly they don’t and in fact the NT says they were blinded so they wouldn’t know!
So this is mysterious & Paul said something about his rejection by the Jews was needed for the salvation of the gentiles.
No they thought Isa 53 was Israel & that Israel died for the sins of others.Much of Isaiah prior to chap 53 was about Israel & the change of meaning to an individual is subtle and they assumed Israel was referred to as “he” even though Israel had been referred to as the wife of God previously but also “son”, i believe once.
Yes, that’s exactly my impression. The assumption that most Jews in Jesus’ day expected that they would kill their Messiah seems the opposite of their expectation about the victory that a new son of David would bring.
Yea thats exactly it. As I understand it, any Jew from any generation can technically be the Messiah if they fulfil the certain requirements. Once a person dies however, they can no longer be considered as a Messiah. I think this has to do with reigning on earth for the millennia.
Don’t know if there is really much said about whether the Messiah would die and come back later though. Certainly not a view common with the OT.
Isa 53:8 He was condemned to death without a fair trial. Who could have imagined what would happen to him? His life was taken away because of the sinful things my people had done.
Isa 53:9 He wasn’t dishonest or violent, but he was buried in a tomb of cruel and rich people.
Isa 53:10 The LORD decided his servant would suffer as a sacrifice to take away the sin and guilt of others. Now the servant will live to see his own descendants. He did everything the LORD had planned.
Isa 53:11 By suffering, the servant will learn the true meaning of obeying the LORD. Although he is innocent, he will take the punishment for the sins of others, so that many of them will no longer be guilty.
Isa 53:12 The LORD will reward him with honor and power for sacrificing his life. Others thought he was a sinner, but he suffered for our sins and asked God to forgive us.
and who is “my people” in verse 8?
I don’t get this logic, considering the verses we are referring to (see above) I’m probably being thick but could you expound that for me?
I’ve been thinking about this Bob and I still can’t get where you are. Why would you think this?
[I personally found it useful to consider how Christendom has handled it’s own scriptures and how it has behaved regardless of what it has read]
Jews all imagined that this would happen to Isaiah’s servant figure here.
But most read that the return of an “anointed” kingly son of David would instead triumphantly put to death God’s enemies like the first David did, restore Israel’s power, temple, and kingdom, and bring the day of a peaceful messianic new heaven and earth.
You respond, "Jews’ expectation about the victory a new son of David would bring… I can’t get where you are. “Why would you think this?”
We’re all reduced to processing tons of thousand’s of year old texts in unfamiliar languages to gauge whether this is how most Jews then interpreted the O.T. emphasis on a returning “Anointed One.” And we all seem reduced to looking to scholars devoted to that era and deciding who we find most trustworthy and convincing about first century Jewish interpretations and expectations.
I admit the most influential figure for me here in making sense of the Biblical text is N.T. Wright. If you want detail on why I assume this as the dominant Jewish outlook, his most accessible cases for this reading are found in “The Challenge of Jesus,” and “Simply Jesus.” He reviews a host of O.T. texts about which he finds evidence that Jews especially regarded as messianic texts, as well as shows how the N.T. record confirms this as what its era’s Jews expected, and thus widely found Jesus’ and apostolic claims of a peaceful suffering messiah (in the mold of Isaiah 53) to be sheer foolishness.
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:18 NAS95)
Do we accept that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God—indeed “the only begotten God” as the apostle John wrote in the sentence above—or not? If so, then surely we can accept as true Jesus’ affirmation that He is the Messiah!
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”
Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.” John 4:25,26 NAS95)
By the way, just in case you think John 1:18 reads “the only-begotten Son” as many translations have it, rather than “the only-begotten God”, I want you to know, that the only Greek manuscripts of the verse dated prior to the year A.D. 300 which contain the verse, are Papyrus 66 (dated about A.D. 150) and Papyrus 75 (dated about A.D. 200). Both of these manuscripts read “the only-begotten God.”
It’s one of the reasons why they crucified Jesus… upon entering Jerusalem instead of turning right and routing the Romans at the Fortress Antonia he instead turns left and wreaks havoc at the Temple — rooky mistake for their expected Messiah. Cf. Jn 6:15
Deuteronomy 13:
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.
to which mik quotes Deuteronomy 13
I still don’t get what you’re trying to say mik.
Deuteronomy 13 - which instructs jews to stone false prophets does not answer my question. Isa 53 talks of a servant who dies and yet lives again after death. You mention reigning on earth for the millenia. -this is certainly a possibility for the one in Isa 53 who dies yet lives on.