The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#1

I found this video enlightening and inspiring. According to this preacher legalists like paidion are the ones who will end up in hell, not the Christian “sinners”.

What are your thoughts?


#2

Do you subscribe to his hell?


#3

Here are the Got Questions, CARM and Wiki positions on this:

What is Lordship salvation and is it biblical?


#4

The Christian church really does not even know what the Gospel is??


#5

I suppose I will be with Paidion in hell then.:slightly_smiling_face:


#6

And if I join you, here’s who’s coming with me. But I’ll make sure, they all do - their fair share of work.

But first, I’ll share an interesting article today - from a Protestant Pentecostal.

Now, everyone get to work!


#7

The hell of the guy in the video? No. I don’t believe in ET. That verse in Matthew 7, however, suggests some kind of postmortem punishment.


#8

It is a common misunderstanding that those who believe we are being saved from sin itself, and must receive the enabling grace of God to succeed, are “adding works to grace.” That is not the case. Obeying a set of laws through self-effort is not that which Christianity is about. It’s about receiving the enabling grace of God (which has been made available by the sacrificial death of Christ) in order to eschew evil and to live righteously. If we continue to live sinful lives, that is clear evidence that we have not received that grace.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

The “counterfeit form of the gospel” is the teaching that it is not necessary to live righteously—that all we have to do is pray, “Lord Jesus come into my heart. I hereby accept you as my personal Saviour,” and that as a consequent, we will be saved from hell no matter how we live thereafter because we have “accepted Christ.”


#9

IMO that’s exactly what you’re doing. What exactly Jesus’ death accomplished in your theology is a total mystery to me. Your soteriology is works based, just like Judaism and Islam. How does a man (even a perfect man) dying a horrible death make it possible for people to have perfect works themselves? If humanity had free will pre-Calvary and post-Calvary, then humans would’ve been capable of the same works before and after.


#10

That is were you are right, Don has a view that is- well Don… Jesus did accomplish everything necessary for us (all of us) to be accepted by God. The big step is for you to realize and acknowledge that Christ did atone for the sins of His people and that all of us (the nations) became partakers. It seems that I have said this before… Déjà vu may well be in place… :grinning:


#11

Legalists like paidion insist that works are needed. But I have never met a Christian with perfect works. If the purpose of Jesus’ death and resurrection was to “enable” people to live righteously (where righteousness is defined by works) it seems to have failed, because only someone whose works are perfect can claim righteous works before a perfect Being.


#12

Don is not a legalist, and MM is painting a caricature from the alternate universe he inhabits.
It is funny to hear the same false accusations over and over and over again. Don has made a scriptural case for growth in grace; and the constant chattering about “Oh works works works” has NOTHING to do with the point he and the scriptures make about that growth.
I know this is boring you - tough! :slight_smile:


#13

HFPZ posted some interesting articles from CARM, GotQuestions & Wikipedia. It seems Calvinist Matt Slick of CARM considers Lordship Salvation to be legalistic while Wiki says:

So, according to Wiki, even the opponents of Lordship Salvation acknowledge that “good works are a proper response to salvation”.

Matt Slick remarks “that the necessary result of his regenerative work in us is our faith and repentance.”


#14

I don’t see how it makes one a “legalist” to believe the consistent Bible narrative presents a God who puts importance on producing a people whose lives will reflect God’s character and what we are called to be. It doesn’t require believing in perfectionism to believe Paul’s words that we were “created for good works,” and that God is able to accomplish them in our lives.


#15

If we are to be judged based on our works, we all will be condemned. What makes you think a perfect Being requires less than perfect works if he’s going to hold people accountable for their works?

You and paidion seem to have created in your minds an arbitrary point at which someone’s works are good enough to be considered righteous even though they are not perfect. Where is that arbitrary point and how do legalists like you guys come to conclude where it is?


#16

“If we are to be judged based on our works, we all will be condemned. What makes you think a perfect Being requires less than perfect works if he’s going to hold people accountable for their works?”

Bob’s response: The reason I think that, “he is going to hold people accountable for their works,” is that with Jesus it is said: “What must I do to inherit eternal life? ‘What is written in God’s law… do this and you will live”
“Whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 10:25-28; 14:27,33)
“To enter eternal life, keep God’s commandments!… I do not abolish God’s law… Unless your righteousness surpasses the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom… Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down… Only those who do the will of my Father will enter the kingdom of heaven… You must deny yourself & take up your cross daily… God will reward all according to what they have done.” (Mt. 19:16f; 5:17-20; 7:19,21; 16:24,27)

And Paul agreed: “Keeping God’s commands is what counts… we uphold the law… It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” For God sent His Son “in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us who do not live according to the sinful nature” (1 Cor. 7:19; Rom. 3:31; 2:13,26; 8:4; Cf. Mt. 19:16f).

Thus, pursuing a godly life can not be optional, and a simply imputed righteousness will not do. Indeed, for everyone, the standard for salvation on Judgment Day will be the works we have done.

Jesus and Paul say: “People reap what they sow… Everyone will receive what is due them for the things done, whether good or bad… God will repay everyone according to what they have done… To those who persist in doing good… He’ll give eternal life” (Gal. 6:7f; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 2:6f; Cf. Jesus: Mt. 25:34-46; Mk. 9:43-49; Lk 6:38) (I detail my understanding of this in my paper, Comparing Jesus and Paul)

My question is, what makes you think we will not be judged or held accountable for our works, and what assures you that God can not require less than perfection?

I don’t see Jesus treating sinners or me that way. Even in my great imperfection, he has been enormously gracious.


#17

Outstanding response, Bob. Thanks.


#18

Even when we are raised from the dead and judged at the great white throne judgment by what are we judged? We are judged by our works.

Paul said “God is zealous for a people who do good works” although the expression “faith alone in Christ alone” is attributed to Paul , he never said it but rather his message was about a faith that works or to put it another way “faithfulness.”

It’s not legalism to strive to do good works, it’s clearly what Jesus called us to do, out of gratitude to God.


#19

So how good do our works have to be? I’ve yet to meet a perfect Christian, unless maybe you’re the first. Are your works perfect? If not, what makes you think your work are good enough?


#20

Obviously no one is perfect, that’s a red herring issue. The point is to strive to be Christlike knowing on the way we will often stumble as James said.