The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#305

Questions are ‘loaded’ (and we’re not in logic class here, so I’m using the popular…usage. Yes I’ve studied logic) when the asker has an unstated supposition that he’s keeping in his back pocket to pull out after the askee answers according to his lights.
“Do you think ‘works’ are necessary for salvation?” - well wait a dang second - that’s a 'loaded" question in a way - what do you mean by ‘works’, what do you mean by ‘necessary’, what do you mean by ‘salvation’?
Those are ambiguous words unless the parties agree to their usage. So for me to say ‘yes’ means, to me, that living in a way that pleases God and shows His love to my neighbor (WORKS) IS necessary as the fruits of a saving relationship with God. NOT to ‘get saved’, but as a result. Why is that so difficult? Do we want no responsibility at all to work out our salvation??
So if I said ‘yes’, that would be what I mean.
Others ignorantly think they know what I mean when I say ‘yes’ - but they don’t. They have their hidden suppositions that react robotically when the word ‘works’ is used. They assume way too much and all it does is stir things up.
It’s something that you dumbly do all the time - and that’s dumb. Really, really dumb. Now you have to either use 3 or more ‘really’s’ or try another word. Or just stop the damn name calling.
For examples, read 100 or so of your dumb posts where you refuse to understand what someone else means by ‘works’.


#306

I may be mistaken, but I think I detect a slight hint of anger, Mr. Logician.


#307

Actually, it’s more plain old frustration. I don’t like name calling or ad-hominem attacks, and that’s what many of these threads rely on, rather than a calm, brotherly discussion.
Maybe I need to watch a zombie flick and chill out?? :slight_smile:


#308

OKAyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

I think I understand that frustration.


#309

murray


#310

It’s almost cute how you’re so eager to get origen to dodge my questions that you’d write this polemic, vacuous nonsense.


#311

I don’t know what happened to you a few weeks/month ago, but you took a nasty, hard turn. It’s no fun any more talking with you. Just me - I’m sure everyone else is fine with the barbs and insults.
Well, off to Z-world.


#312

@DaveB
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I don’t know what happened to you a few weeks/month ago, but you took a nasty, hard turn. It’s no fun any more talking with you.
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Galatians 5:19-26 English Standard Version (ESV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

For someone who talks about needing good works to be saved, I’d expect better. Or maybe most people who teach lordship salvation don’t practice what they preach.


#313

See? I never said that. That’s exactly what I was talking about.
Paidion said anger, I didn’t - and I’m not. It’s all in your head.


#314

Yeah, people who are angry don’t use the same pejorative adjective over and over again to describe their opponents. You’re not fooling anyone.


#315

I was, of course, using ‘dumb’ because you used it to describe a statement of mine, hoping against hope you would see how dumb it is to throw that at someone. No luck.
You will as always get the last word Qaz. I have found a zombie movie on Netflix. I sure wish I knew what happened to you.


#316

For a student of logic to compare my questions to a loaded question is indeed dumb. Who did you study logic under? You should seek a refund. :wink:

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I sure wish I knew what happened to you.
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Oh give me a break with this self-righteous indignation. You simply don’t like some of my views. Rather than simply debating me, you act like there’s something wrong with my character. I’m pretty sure that’s your last line of defense when i express views that make you uncomfortable. It’s your way of telling me, “Shut up. I don’t like the views you’re sharing.”


#317

That’s EXACTLY what I was illustrating, with this video - which I posted earlier:

Like when I mentioned that “works” can be miracles and gifts of the spirit. Which are used BOTH to increase faith…but they ALSO need faith, to jump-start them. And unless we start on the same page - of language understanding…our discussions can (and often usually) - end this way:


#318

Paidon, if the saints are saved from the corrective wrath of God (Jn.3:36; Col.3:5-7; Rom.1:18; 2:5-16; 5:9; Eph.5:6), then is the wrath of God a worse type of correction for the wicked than the correction that is for the saints who still would need some character correction or transformation postmortem?

If Paul still needed character correction postmortem after serving the Lord for decades, how long will those who died as newborn Christians need such a correction postmortem?

Did Paul still have flaws in his character? Are such flaws sin? Will sin be allowed into paradise or heaven?

To a dying criminal on a cross Jesus said: I tell you today you will be with Me in paradise. Jesus didn’t mention a purgatory or a place of fiery correction or decades of sufferings where the man would have to go first and be salted with fire until his character was good enough for entrance into paradise.

This verse speaks not of suffering chastening or correction postmortem, but of those who will not be ashamed:

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming.
1 John 3:2 We know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is"
Col.3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
Eph.3:12 In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God’s presence with boldness and confidence.

Incorruptible. That doesn’t sound like any character flaws:

1 Cor.15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The saints shall be always with the Lord, not in a purgatory or lake of fire somewhere:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

I wonder if the ““Everyone will be salted with fire” (Mk.9:49) is experienced by those “in Christ” saints premortem:

Mk.9:50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Such are already salted in being the salt of the earth (Mt.5:13). On the day of Pentecost God salted them with His fire:

Acts 2:) 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit

Mt.3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


#319

Some Christians were such almost their entire life, like 80 years. Some of the OT saints were such for perhaps 100’s of years, though less than 1000. If every saint will require postmortem correction, even apostles like Paul, how long might this correction last? Perhaps hundreds or thousands of years? Or will it continue for all eternity? Would it still be needed after God becomes “all in all”? How much suffering would this correction involve? What of Scriptures that speak of no more tears or pain?


#320

Paidon, if the saints are saved from the corrective wrath of God (Jn.3:36; Col.3:5-7; Rom.1:18; 2:5-16; 5:9; Eph.5:6), then is the wrath of God a worse type of correction for the wicked than the correction that is for the saints who still would need some character correction or transformation postmortem?

God will give no one any greater degree of correction than is absolutely necessary.

If Paul still needed character correction postmortem after serving the Lord for decades, how long will those who died as newborn Christians need such a correction postmortem?

I have no idea how long. They will be given whatever is necessary to correct their character—just like everybody else.

I’ve never said anything about “somewhere.” I’ve never suggested they have to be sent somewhere. For as long as I have considered this, I have presumed that the correction will take place where they will be—with the Lord. A human father doesn’t send his children “somewhere” to be corrected. He corrects them right in his home where the children are.


#321

Following that reasoning postmortem correction of Christians will, like in this life, involve sufferings of various degrees & last, in at least some cases, for up to at least 8 decades. If even apostles like Paul were not perfected after decades, who knows how long it might take others to be perfected. If not a single Christian who ever lived was perfected in this world, who can say how long it would take to be perfected. Maybe hundreds or thousands of years?

However just because premortem correction/chastening of His saints occurred in certain ways, it doesn’t follow that postmortem correction will occur in the same ways. Postmortem life will be unlike premortem life in a number of ways that we may be unaware of. It will be also be different in ways that we are aware of. For one we will have immortality & incorruption. Also at some point there will be no more tears, crying or pain (Revelation 21). Which suggests that even if postmortem chastening or correction were ongoing, it would, when that scripture is fulfilled, be painless.


#322

Origen, just some food for thought… IF you have “incorruption” postmortem HOW do you likewise at the same time retain imperfection still in need of “correction”? — is that not a total contradiction?

IF in Christ’s parousia the LAST ENEMY (death) has been destroyed, i.e., there remains none else, THEN FROM WHERE and from what cause still emanates yet “more tears, crying or pain”?

I’m glad you finally starting to ask logical questions that the PU position, and the variants thereof, throws up in your own mind.


#323

Some might take the position that incorruption refers merely to the body, not the soul of Christians that is in need of further character correction postmortem. Though, i wonder if, perhaps, that would be more of a difficult position to hold for those who believe in something resembling “soul sleep”.

That is a passage to be considered in the whole postmortem correction of Christians discussion. There is the question of what “death” is referring to, whether that of body, soul, spirit or something (or someone) else?


#324

Well soul sleep aside I see the whole proposal as unworkable and improbable… apart from there being absolutely no textual warrant for it there appears no evidence that God deals in discipline ante-mortem that doesn’t involve the whole man — so how that could likely be bifurcated post-mortem who knows? Like does the perfected spirit enjoy God’s delight while the soul or body discipline in the lake of fire — where it is you guys for example suggest said correction takes place? As far as I can see the whole notion is speculative and fraught with unworkable difficulties, IMO. Especially considering this from Paul… like is this just a rambling wishful platitude on his part:

1Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well none of that is likely if any of the above ponderings pan out… so much for the glorious transformation IF most likely what you’ve alluded to most every believer (quite apart from anyone else) are back to grade school. The more I consider this the more I shake my head in bewilderment.

Well yes… and certainly this query along with the others you’ve raised don’t add any likelihood that such a PU position is likely at all?? — again IMO.