The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#325

A classical position for imperfect Christians to be perfected postmortem has to do with a state (or place) called “purgatory”. The RCC folks also speak about “limbo”. I don’t know what the EOC view is on the subject, but i expect Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Augustine, & other ECF have quite a bit to say both in terms of Scripture & philosophically.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-purgatory-in-the-bible


#326

Last night, this came to me - as the most important element.

Polonius:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!

It’s from Shakespeare.

Let me quote a bit:

Shakespeare uses irony and humor by masterfully presenting his characters, which speak high and act low. Polonius is one of those characters whom Shakespeare does not intend to present profoundly, nevertheless, he lets him speak as a scholar, creating humor and satire. Today, critics believe that the gaudy speeches of Polonius in this play are actually Shakespeare’s own maxims for living a good and noble life.

Hum! This does sound vaguely familiar.

And it is accomplished, by these three guiding principles - for me. As portrayed in the counsel to Polonius,

  • The Eastern Church

  • Ancient wisdom from the Buddhist, Native American and yogic traditions.

  • Ancient and modern healing modalities.

Everything in life - for me - can be answered via one, of those three areas. With the Eastern Church, being the highest authority.

This comes from today’s Sunil Bali newsletter:

All your dreams are made, when you’re chained to the mirror and the razor blade," sang rock star, philosopher and Ivor Novello award-winning songwriter Noel Gallagher.

When asked where his creativity comes from, Gallagher replied, “In the Church of Gallagher I have a commandment which I never break, “Though shalt not get up before 10am.” And when I do get up, I take ages in the bathroom, not preening myself, but daydreaming in front of the mirror, or in the shower. Most of my best ideas come to me around 10:30am in the bathroom while I’m shaving or having a shower.”

Gallagher’s non-active action, reconciles with the Taoist principles of,

  • Wu Wei - effortless effort, and
  • Ziran - natural, innate creativity brought forth by an uncluttered mind.

Confucius was an ardent advocate of spontaneous creativity produced by what he called, the "tortoise mind." This has been backed up my research at Harvard which shows that less thinking and more daydreaming results in higher dopamine levels and new patterns of thought, both of which enhance creativity.

Who would have thought that Confucius and Noel Gallagher would both be Daydream Believers


#327

Well yeah that is true, but even then when that was being peddled one was born a “Christian” by virtue of being born a Catholic. But anyway… this idea of added purification beyond death not only questions the efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice, i.e., it is apparently good enough to get us into God’s lake of purifying fire for sure, but still needs our efforts (and the efforts of those who apparently instruct as per Paidion’s position) to then escape this into heaven proper. Thus this PU position as it stands seems to me to be nothing more than but rebadged Catholicism… and I just don’t think it stacks up.


#328

I mentioned that I believe the kingdom of heaven/God is God’s reign here on earth, not the postmortem destination of the blessed. Here’s Jonathan Mitchell on this subject. http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/paulsvice.htm

@davo if there’s no postmortem punishment how do you explain Paul’s statements about all the people not inheriting the kingdom? Do you see the kingdom the same way as Mitchell and me?


#329

Without knowing all the nuances involved I’d say we’d be on a similar page as I too view the kingdom as the reign of God and thus the “not inheriting” was relative to not entering that reign/rule of God as a present reality… and so no, it has nothing to do with any postmortem getting into heaven etc.


#330

You know what? All these thread discussions - regarding sins, classifications and categories of sins…caused me to do some DEEP thinking and contemplation. I’m trying to figure out which sins, Johnny committed - in this video:

First, a question that came up on Facebook

No matter how much a pray and meditate, I can’t find a reason to live… does anyone see one in me?

Here is my answer - from 100 + answers:

Get off a virtual forum and talk to real people. They might be medical doctors, priests, ministers, psychologists, therapists, Zen masters, Tibetan Lamas, shamans, psychiatrists, crisis lines, homeopaths, Native American - medicine men and women, healers, etc. See what they have to say and what they have to offer.


#331

According to Augustine, evidently, even being born into a “Catholic” family was not sufficient to make one a Christian or save one from “hell” as he understood the idea of “hell”. Should even such a baby die & never be baptized, IHO the child would end up in “hell” forever. Whether or not he thought the dead “Catholic” baby could still be saved with the aid of baptism after dieing, i am not aware.

As to EOC opinions on “purgatory” & the need for imperfect Christians to be perfected postmortem, the following may be of interest:

The variety of viewpoints among the Eastern Orthodox re Purgatory:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory6.htm


#332

How is the “efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice” to be defined? Something judicial or objective that doesn’t actually effect, all by itself alone without human cooperation, the subjective actual state of sin/s, sinning or guilt in people’s lives? Purgatory or purification postmortem, whether of imperfect Christians or others, is arguably properly about the latter, while at the same time not denying (or necessarily affirming) the former. Given that the full efficacy of His sacrifice doesn’t become effective in people’s lives without their libertarian free will (LFW) cooperation, there will be & must be postmortem correction and/or chastening and or punishment.


#333

It is purification of Character that should be the focus - Christ’s death, as glorious as was its benefits (an understatement, that) - does not change our characters automatically. I would think that is self-evident. The NT scriptures point to growth, ‘adding’ to our faith, becoming rooted and grounded in love etc etc etc. That’s a good thing, but is only possible because of the resurrection of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit.


#334

I have been away for a while. qaz, do you really think that divorce ‘OR’ homosexuality is a sin to our creator God?


#335

I think both are. Not because I personally find them immoral, but because both are unambiguously condemned in the NT.


#336

Absolutely, and I think we have crossed this before, but how are " both are unambiguously condemned in the NT" relative to us?


#337

There is an interesting article I found…by a Roman Catholic priest and theologian:

I’m more concern with what:

  • The Eastern Orthodox Church

  • The Roman Catholic Church

says on a topic. In that order. With all due respect, I really don’t care…what Joe Blow, Forrest Gump, Rupus T. Firefly, Jerry Seinfeld, etc. - has to say. Although I do listen and follow the conversations.

But (with all due respect) other then the two churches opinions…I really echo the sentiment…of the main character - in “Gone With The Wind”.

And I won’t be able to continue any “dialogue” tonight…as I am watching:

  • Doctor Who

  • The Walking Dead.


#338

Randy via USCatolic.org said “A couple can indeed be divorced and remarried outside the church. That is the “objective situation” (and wrong). However, this does not necessarily make the couple “subjectively” guilty of committing a mortal sin (or “imputability”). The morality of a specific action depends not only on the “objective” action (what is actually done), but also on the “intention” of the couple and the “circumstances” in which the act takes place (see Catechism 1750).”

Not sure about the ‘I don’t give a Damn’ part but whatever. You believe the churches position, but add that you really don’t give a damn. I like it.

Thanks Randy.


#339

https://carm.org/what-does-bible-teach-about-divorce


#340

The handy feature of the purgatorial route of interpretation (and yet its very deficiency) is it doesn’t need to rely on solid or sound textual backing… it simply states its case AND THEN attaches texts to those assumptions claiming implied support and meaning.

The efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice, however, is that He removed (NOT is yet to with your cooperation) once for all the guilt condition wrought in Adam’s sin, period… Rom 5:12; Jn 1:29; Heb 9:26 et al.

Again, the deficiency of the PU model is that it writes human effort or intervention into one’s redemptive story by way of self-effort in terms of needing to meet certain postmortem criterion to gain ultimate favour with God to where final entrance to heaven is gained through said criteria being met.

NO… the actualising of peace that cooperation brings DOES NOT create the efficacy, it simply taps into it because it ALREADY FULLY exists. And there is no… “postmortem correction and/or chastening and or punishment” just as there is no antemortem of the same, other than the vacuous void one’s heart experiences not knowing the grace that can flood that void.


#341

Do you really take the view of ‘Focus on the Family’ as some sort of biblical signpost?

Good for you if you do.


#342

Not necessarily, just posting a few opinions FYI after the tradition of poster HFPZ.


#343

Origen, these seem like logically legitimate questions… given you are a proponent of the PU position can you yourself give a reasoned response to each of these above? I’d be interested in seeing you tease out your supporting rationale.


#344

There seems to be a number of diverse opinions re how Eastern Orthodoxy views “purgatory”:

“The Eastern Orthodox Church holds that it is necessary to believe in this intermediate after-death state in which souls are perfected and brought to full divinization, a process of growth rather than of punishment, which some Orthodox have called purgatory.[83] Eastern Orthodox theology does not generally describe the situation of the dead as involving suffering or fire, although it nevertheless describes it as a “direful condition”.[[84]]”
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#cite_note-Confession_of_Dositheus-84) The souls of the righteous dead are in light and rest, with a foretaste of eternal happiness; but the souls of the wicked are in a state the reverse of this. Among the latter, such souls as have departed with faith but “without having had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance … may be aided towards the attainment of a blessed resurrection [at the end of time] by prayers offered in their behalf, especially those offered in union with the oblation of the bloodless sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, and by works of mercy done in faith for their memory.”[85]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

https://stjohndc.org/en/orthodoxy-foundation/purgatory-and-indulgences

https://www.quora.com/Do-any-Orthodox-Christians-believe-in-purgatory-like-the-Roman-Catholics

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-beliefs-of-the-Orthodox-Church-regarding-purgatory

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory