The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#385

@Berserk:

///
5) Though works are a necessary condition for salvation, works can’t merit salvation because we are still saved by grace.
///

That sounds like doublespeak to me. See, here’s the problem. Origen was right on the money diagnosing me with a crisis of faith. At the moment, I am totally unable to see why Jesus had to die, especially if we need works to be saved. What makes some sense to me is the idea that no one can live up to God’s standards of morality; and that’s why a loving God had to send a sacrificial messiah; unlike “regular” humanity the messiah COULD keep God’s law perfectly, making him a perfect sacrifice; anyone who believes in the messiah is free from the postmortem punishment they deserved for failing to live up to God’s standards.

Now you (and others) are saying no, we CAN live up to God’s standards, and failing to live up to them results in our postmortem punishment. Then why the heck did Jesus have to die?!? If we CAN live up to God’s standards with our works, and NEED to, why couldn’t God just let people into heaven based on our works? What does the messiah dying a horrible death add to the standing of a person who otherwise was keeping the law?


#386

The Eastern Orthodox have perspectives on this. And folks here - and elsewhere - are free to accept or reject them.


#387

No don’t forget it. That is what we are here for, Don divorce yourself from the hooligan tactics like I sometimes use, but be willing to take a shellacking and understand your view is real and realistic.

But as Bob Dylan said ‘the times they are a changing.’
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won’t come again
And don’t speak too soon
For the wheel’s still in spin
And there’s no tellin’ who
That it’s namin’.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin’.


#388

It’s not double speak. There are many examples in life of:
A is a necessary condition for B, but not a sufficient condition for B.

Here is a clear example:
A battery is a necessary condition for the operation of a car over a 60-mile trip. but a battery is not a sufficient condition for the operation of the car over a 60-mile trip. Gasoline (as well as other substances) are also necessary.

Apply this to the subject at hand:
Works are a necessary condition for salvation from sin, but not a sufficient condition. The enabling grace of God is also necessary.


#389

qaz, from where in the bible do you find… punishment per postmortem deservedly for failing God’s standards?

qaz, from where in the bible do you find… “works” being the gauge for entrance into heaven?


#390

MM, I don’t mean to sound condescending, but I am befuddled at your response. Do you not know what is going on in Yemen? Have you not seen the picture of Amal Hussein who just died recently?

qaz, I don’t think the Bible is speaking of post mortem punishment.


#391

Then what’s it speaking of?


#392

I’m not sure I follow you, you said

Well, LLC, You may have to get a bit more specific… No I do not know what is going on…

Once again:

I would love to hear the nuts and bolts of your view. How does that have anything to do with any of us failing to follow God in any way?


#393

[quote=“qaz, post:385, topic:13561”]
qaz: “That sounds like doublespeak to me. At the moment, I am totally unable to see why Jesus had to die, especially if we need works to be saved.”

First. what you are “totally unable to see” is precisely what the Bible teaches. So deal with it. Your bias has prevented you from an honest confrontation with the texts that clearly refute your perspective.
Second, if essential good works can’t merit our salvation, then “Jesus had to die” to make our salvation possible. No doublespeak at all!
Third, consider the absurd implications of your denial of the biblical teaching that we are saved by grace through an adequate way of being. On your view, all we need to do is have faith in the right belief system and we get our ticket punched to Heaven, regardless of how selfish and unspiritual our manner of living is. Why do you imagine God would tolerate a morally reprehensible system like yours?


#394

If I had a dollar for every time I read “The clear teaching of the Bible…” It is laughable that people even use that phrase. The Bible is anything but clear. No one can take that statement seriously unless they lived under a rock and had no idea how many denominations existed… If you live in an Evangelical Bubble, I suppose you might be able to get away with it.


#395

What a bunch of drivel. You are one close minded and dogmaticly condescending individual.


#396

I think this is debatable. I think, also, assuming that is the proper word, the definition and usage of the word may have different implications than how we use the word today.


#397

Fair enough Gabe… can you tease out a bit more your basis for this thought?


#398

In defense of Qaz, I will say that I understand where he is coming from. I have resolved my own internal conflict on this issue, but he has not yet resolved it. These things take time to work through, and i’d argue he is honestly tackling this issue on.

I wish some of you would not assume dishonest intentions of other’s merely because they don’t agree on everything or see things the same way. Imagine, Qaz may be wrestling with God!


#399

And risk getting into a never ending debate? :smile:

George MacDonald had a compelling case to me, in one of his Unspoken Sermons. I think JRP also made a case for this same thing in a thread somewhere here.


#400

What Gabe!? you said this was “debatable” and now you’re bailing on me… especially after saying you agreed with a “compelling case” — I can’t read your mind. :smile:


#401

Life on earth.

MM, I think what is happening in Yemen is the result of man’s sins - greed, struggle for power, control, and wealth, covetousness, theft, murder, etc.etc.etc. I definitely don’t see it as a result of loving God and loving others as ourselves. What are your thoughts?


#402

True, but stating something is debatable, isn’t the same thing as wanting to debate it, especially when others have already debated such topics before. I feel I could add nothing new to the debate, merely that I don’t think the case was as cut and dried as you seem to have implied with Paidion.


#403

Given (assuming) that is so, & only one Human ever lived a perfect adult life “up to God’s standards of morality”, while all others failed, what is the problem with accepting everything you just said?

Not one adult fallen human ever lived a perfect life “up to God’s standards”. I wonder if even anyone ever did from the time of becoming a Christian. Would they need to be martyred almost instantly after converting to accomplish that?

Though many would opine that after becoming a Christian people should begin to live a more Christ-like life. Eventually, in God’s kingdom, that will be how we live continually & perfectly.

Some would interpret things such that if people profess faith in Christ but never change for the better then, perhaps, they never truly converted. Ultimately God, not any fallen man, will be the Judge in this matter.


#404

I concur. The key difference from my perspective is that unlike in evangelicalism “conversion” is NOT the means to gaining Heaven, BUT the sign of SERVICE… thus the pantelist focus being ‘saved to serve’ — not getting into heaven; the Father and Son between them sorted that issue already.