The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#405

What leads to your opinion that “conversion” does not gain “Heaven”? Is Christ now in “Heaven”? Where are the 12 apostles, including Judas Iscariot, & the apostle Paul? Where are those who died in the faith & those who “died in their sins”? What is the meaning of Luke 16:19-31? Do all go to “Heaven” at death, both those whose father is the devil & those who are born of God? Both those who do His will & those He never knew?

Here in Luke 10 Jesus does not tell the disciples to rejoice in their service in delivering people from demonic spirits, but that their names are written in the Heavens:

Yet do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subjected to you; but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens. (Lk.10:20)

Where do we ever read of anything like that regarding the wicked? Not here:

40 And the other answering, was rebuking him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, that you are under the same judgment, 41 and we indeed justly? For we are receiving things worthy of what we did, but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Lk.23:40-43)


#406

IF you read me carefully, I said… “conversion” is NOT the means to gaining Heaven” — nor indeed was such its purpose — or perhaps you do have a text that says the goal of conversion is to gain heaven… do you?

Conversion was about transformation in THIS LIFE whereby the blessing of God flows (Act 3:19; 26:20), i.e., “love thy neighbour” — which is meant to be the natural outflow of loving God.

Can you please explain your rationale as to why you might think I might conclude otherwise?


#407

Very true. I mentioned that I hung out, for a year or so. With priests from:

And Christian Science practitioners:

And BOTH can argument convincingly - of their positions - from scripture alone.

And even the non-denominational site - Got Questions - can do that. But how many here, ALWAYS agrees with them…when I share their perspective?

And how would you address someone, who sides with:

At least with Eastern Orthodoxy - right or wrong - they carry an understanding of Holy Scripture…that has been passed down from the apostles - via Sacred Tradition.

It’s NOT that I don’t find wisdom,advice and counsel…from hanging out, with Native American medicine people, Tibetan Lamas, Zen masters, Indian yogis and Islamic Sufis.

For example - Zen

And Sufi

And as Jerry Seinfeld and company - says about ancient wisdom

But I find the highest wisdom, in the Eastern Orthodox church.


#408

To me, it had nothing to do with getting into heaven after we die. The Father and Son didn’t sort that issue out either. It was about creating a “heaven” on earth, God in us and among us.


#409

Yes. But most people don’t know, how to find God - in and among us. Now the mystics of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic church do. As well as the Native American medicine people, Sufis and others. But the common man might have trouble doing this.

In the meantime, here are a couple of articles - I received today:

Let me quote a bit, from the newsletter today from CAC

According to Teilhard, God has implanted a divine spark of love in everything created, down to every last subatomic particle and photon of light. . . . That spark in each of us waits to be cultivated and developed until it matures. . . .

In contemporary language, Teilhard might say that God has an evolutionary “project” for creation that God wants to accomplish. . . . God wants creation to become fully conscious that it is imbued with divine love and living in that love. This final outcome is what Teilhard called “the Omega Point” and St. Paul called the Pleroma. [See Colossians 2:9-10.]

But I’ll bet folks could find zombies if they looked for them! :wink:


#410

You didn’t answer my question. Why couldn’t obeying God’s standards of morality alone merit heaven? What would Jesus’ death add to the standing of someone who was otherwise living up to God’s standards?


#411

Origen:

///
what is the problem with accepting everything you just said?
///

My problem isn’t with that. It’s with the idea that Jesus’s life and death were only necessary, not sufficient for us entering heaven.


#412

Origen:

///
Not one adult fallen human ever lived a perfect life “up to God’s standards”.
///

Well, if works are necessary for salvation, and what you’re saying is true, then it follows that everyone – Christians included – will be punished postmortem.


#413

Or perhaps ‘chastened’ by a loving Father for our own good?


#414

Kindly season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor, drop your mindless ad hominems, and address the concrete arguments I offer to refute qaz’s position.


#415

I know that’s what paidion thinks, but most translations have punishment in Matt 25. Which is an interesting text WRT our discussion here, because it implies that some people WON’T be punished postmortem. Then of course there’s the issue of it already being fulfilled, according to my preterism. Perhaps God continuously judges the same post AD 70 as he did during the parousia? But according to the parable sexual purity has no relevance to judgment, even though it probably gets more attention than any other ethical issue in Paul’s epistles. I’m very confused.


#416

Matthew 25 and other verses which prima facie teach that a person who sins isn’t saved.


#417

“The clear teaching of the Bible…” is that it teaches about God:

“…there is no God…” (Psa.14:1a)


#418

If Jesus’ life & death were sufficient to bring everyone into heaven, then why isn’t everyone in heaven now?

Who’s in heaven now? All those who died in faith? Did they get there merely by Jesus life & death? Without their libertarian free will choices, faith, cooperation with God,being born again, becoming a new creation, etc? Could they be in heaven now with any sin?


#419

A perfect life is not possible or necessary for salvation. All have sinned (Rom.3:23).

What is required for salvation is the new birth (John 3).

Having good works does not make a perfect life. They are a sign of the new birth. They don’t earn salvation.

Christians are saved from the wrath of God, so they won’t suffer such postmortem. Postmortem Christians go to be with the Lord. Not to suffer in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) or in the lake of fire.

It doesn’t necessarily follow from (a) that Christians have sinned that (b) they will be punished postmortem.


#420

Jesus addressed sexual immorality earlier in Matthew. To speak of it again in the Matthew 25 parable would be redundant & besides the point being made there.


#421

Where do you read any Scripture that says “conversion” is not the means to gaining “Heaven”? Will the unconverted be welcomed into “Heaven”? What is IYO the “means to gaining Heaven”?

Is Christ now in “Heaven”? Where are the 12 apostles, including Judas Iscariot, & the apostle Paul? Where are those who died in the faith & those who “died in their sins”? What is the meaning of Luke 16:19-31? Do all go to “Heaven” at death, both those whose father is the devil & those who are born of God? Both those who do His will & those He never knew?

Here in Luke 10 Jesus does not tell the disciples to rejoice in their service in delivering people from demonic spirits, but that their names are written in the Heavens:

Yet do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subjected to you; but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens. (Lk.10:20)

Where do we ever read of anything like that regarding the wicked? Not here:

40 And the other answering, was rebuking him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, that you are under the same judgment, 41 and we indeed justly? For we are receiving things worthy of what we did, but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Lk.23:40-43)

Repent, therefore, and turn again, for the blotting out of your sins, (Acts 3:19)

Where do we ever read of anyone whose sins have not been blotted out that they will be in paradise or heaven on the day they die?

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance.


#422

Matthew 5:21 “…and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

Yikes, for you.


#423

There’s an interesting article, from today’s Patheos’ Catholic newsletter:

Or as the title indicates: Then Jesus said, “Therapy will set you free”

Gee! If you click on my profile avatar and follow the links…I devoted a whole section to “therapy”. And some I can neither confirm - nor deny…whether I am ever participated, in that therapeutic modality.

And here’s another interesting article, from the same newsletter:

Then I’m reading today, this email from Matt Slick - of CARM entitld Do Modern Bible Versions Lead to Heresy? Let me share this segment:

For example, a caller from this past week on the Matt Slick Live radio show was arguing from a King James Only position. He denied the deity of Christ on the basis that the KJV translators had not capitalized “I am” in John 8:58 the way they had in Exodus 3:14.

He argued that if Jesus really were the I AM, in the divine sense, the KJV translators would have capitalized it. Nevermind that the Greek and Hebrew texts don’t even use capitalization in this way. You can watch the whole conversation

I wonder if that caller, was anyone from this forum?

You can view the conversation here. Click the YouTube arrow unto 34.54

This is an interesting article, from the Patheos’ Evangelical newsletter:

Let me quote a bit:

There is a history of evangelical interpretation of the Book of Revelation. It lacks one thing and in its place has used flat-footed literal readings.

Some of them goofy.

I REALLY love the second paragraph.

This paragraph is VERY interesting:

The best thing you might need to do to read Revelation well is to throw away your Scofield Notes and your dispensational charts, turn your back on all those rapture date arguments, and spend time with JRR Tolkien or JK Rowling or CS Lewis, or maybe some Flannery O’Connor or William Faulkner. Instead of pointing from Revelation to some current event, let the Revelation take you to another world … so you can understand this world’s evil as God conquers evil.


#424

Ok… so either I’ve read you wrong elsewhere, possible, or have you changed your mind again? I was under the impression from previous posts elsewhere that you took a more prêteristic approach to Mt 25 along the same lines as Mt 24, i.e., the DoJ and all that went with that — it seems, however, you hold more to the standard evangelical approach that views “being saved” as equalling “getting into heaven”… thus one and the same thing.