The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#425

So @origen if God is going to grant or not grant us heaven on the basis of our works, and we are capable of having “good enough” works to enter heaven, what was the point of Jesus’ death? Why couldn’t God just let people into heaven for having good-but-less-than-perfect works without dying on a cross?


#426

@origen

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If Jesus’ life & death were sufficient to bring everyone into heaven, then why isn’t everyone in heaven now?

Who’s in heaven now? All those who died in faith? Did they get there merely by Jesus life & death? Without their libertarian free will choices, faith, cooperation with God,being born again, becoming a new creation, etc? Could they be in heaven now with any sin?
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I don’t know the answer to any of these questions.


#427

Come on Origen show some maturity… surely you can do better than these juvenile attempts of dodging double-speak?? That’s like saying… ‘where do you read any Scripture that says “ice cream” is NOT on the menu in “Heaven”?’ Like we all know there is no text saying what you wished it did because if there was it would have been first cab off the rank.


#428

IS Gabe bailing out? He referred to the compelling case as being made by George MacDonald. Have you read it? It begins like this:

UNSPOKEN SERMONS—Series 2
ABBA, FATHER!

–the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.’-ROMANS

viii. 15. The hardest, gladdest thing in the world is, to cry Father! from a full heart. I would help whom I may to call thus upon the Father. There are things in all forms of the systematic teaching of Christianity to check this outgoing of the heart–with some to render it simply impossible. The more delicate the affections, the less easy to satisfy, the readier are they to be damped and discouraged, yea quite blown aside; even the suspicion of a cold reception is enough to paralyze them. Such a cold wind blowing at the very gate of heaven-- thank God, outside the gate!–is the so-called doctrine of Adoption. When a heart hears–and believes, or half believes–that it is not the child of God by origin, from the first of its being, but may possibly be adopted into his family, its love sinks at once in a cold faint: where is its own father, and who is this that would adopt it? To myself, in the morning of childhood, the evil doctrine was a mist through which the light came struggling, a cloud-phantom of repellent mien–requiring maturer thought and truer knowledge to dissipate it. But it requires neither much knowledge nor much insight to stand up against its hideousness; it needs but love that will not be denied, and courage to question the phantom.


#429

Heaven is granted on the basis of being born again, becoming a new creation.

There are many different atonement theories re the point of Jesus’ death.

Research & study the different atonement theories & you’ll know why.


#430

That’s just a metaphorical way of describing faith and good works, no? You’ve dodged the question in past threads, so I’m asking you again. What’s your atonement model? If God is going to grant or not grant us heaven on the basis of our works (being born again), and we are capable of having “good enough” works to enter heaven, why did Jesus have to die?


#431

I have researched them and I don’t know why. So please answer.


#432

I don’t know what you are speaking of. But if you want to evade & escape answering the simple questions i posed to you, that’s ok. It will end the discussion, which is apparently what you want. Or perhaps you just don’t know the answers. If that’s the case, you can simply admit it.

Where do you read any Scripture that says “conversion” is not the means to gaining “Heaven”? Will the unconverted be welcomed into “Heaven”? What is IYO the “means to gaining Heaven”?

Is Christ now in “Heaven”? Where are the 12 apostles, including Judas Iscariot, & the apostle Paul? Where are those who died in the faith & those who “died in their sins”? What is the meaning of Luke 16:19-31? Do all go to “Heaven” at death, both those whose father is the devil & those who are born of God? Both those who do His will & those He never knew?

Here in Luke 10 Jesus does not tell the disciples to rejoice in their service in delivering people from demonic spirits, but that their names are written in the Heavens:

Yet do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subjected to you; but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens. (Lk.10:20)

Where do we ever read of anything like that regarding the wicked? Not here:

40 And the other answering, was rebuking him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, that you are under the same judgment, 41 and we indeed justly? For we are receiving things worthy of what we did, but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Lk.23:40-43)

Repent, therefore, and turn again, for the blotting out of your sins, (Acts 3:19)

Where do we ever read of anyone whose sins have not been blotted out that they will be in paradise or heaven on the day they die?

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance.


#433

I’m not here to discuss atonement models, but your notion that if those who are a new creation in Christ must have certain standards to be saved, then Christ died for nothing. I haven’t seen any logical argument from you in support of that notion that makes any sense. What difference does it make what standards are required for salvation? No mater what the standards are, why wouldn’t Christ’s death have the same purpose?

If you are having an issue with the - separate - question of “why did Jesus have to die?”, you might want to start a new thread. Or look up some old ones before you were a member here, or some old ones you’ve started on the topic yourself to review what others have already shared with you on the subject.


#434

Yep I’m done wasting my precious time! :roll_eyes:

Good luck qaz on getting any straight answers out of Origen… he equivocates like jelly all over the place when he senses he’s painted himself into a corner.


#435

I already explained… Jesus’ death makes sense if we’re unable to live up to God’s standards; by believing in Jesus we get imputed with his perfect works. That sounds sufficient for salvation to me. But you don’t think it is. So if God doesn’t demand perfection, but he nonetheless will grant or deny heaven based on how good people’s works are, what’s the point of Jesus’ death?. People (in your soteriology) aren’t imputed with righteousness that saves through belief; we still need works. What does Jesus’ death add to the standing of someone who already had good works?


#436

Dave, that is what he is.

You did try.

Good luck.


#437

As i’ve already said, no one lives an adult lifetime up to the standard of His perfect works.

And yet, evidently, there is another, and completely different standard, which is not a perfect standard, that is the - evidence - of a saved, born again, new creation, Spirit filled person.

Theoretically exactly the same as you stated above. Since no one lives a lifetime perfectly up to God’s standards. Even if the Spirit filled person lives up to a certain unselfish standard that is not sinning habitually. That person’s life was still imperfect, so would still need the “imputed” salvation you speak of above.

There’s no reason why they couldn’t be while also living up to certain standards i’ve already referred to.

How about: Jesus’ death brings to the believer your “imputed” salvation plus the new birth which results in a changed life.


#438

There are 6 or 7 atonement ‘models’ that all have some scriptural support. And almost all of them have a grasp on a part of it. The atonement accomplished more than one thing, it was a rich and complex accomplishment of God in Christ.
I posted those models somewhere here a couple of years back, I’ll see if I can find the thread. It’s pretty interesting.


#439

For example? It seems like a strange comment to make in reply to a post where you are dodging the questions, which is a common M.O. with you, as everyone in the know here knows. So why not just answer the following easy questions:

I don’t know what you are speaking of. But if you want to evade & escape answering the simple questions i posed to you, that’s ok. It will end the discussion, which is apparently what you want. Or perhaps you just don’t know the answers. If that’s the case, you can simply admit it.

Where do you read any Scripture that says “conversion” is not the means to gaining “Heaven”? Will the unconverted be welcomed into “Heaven”? What is IYO the “means to gaining Heaven”?

Is Christ now in “Heaven”? Where are the 12 apostles, including Judas Iscariot, & the apostle Paul? Where are those who died in the faith & those who “died in their sins”? What is the meaning of Luke 16:19-31? Do all go to “Heaven” at death, both those whose father is the devil & those who are born of God? Both those who do His will & those He never knew?

Here in Luke 10 Jesus does not tell the disciples to rejoice in their service in delivering people from demonic spirits, but that their names are written in the Heavens:

Yet do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subjected to you; but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens. (Lk.10:20)

Where do we ever read of anything like that regarding the wicked? Not here:

40 And the other answering, was rebuking him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, that you are under the same judgment, 41 and we indeed justly? For we are receiving things worthy of what we did, but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Lk.23:40-43)

Repent, therefore, and turn again, for the blotting out of your sins, (Acts 3:19)

Where do we ever read of anyone whose sins have not been blotted out that they will be in paradise or heaven on the day they die?

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance.


#440

Here is a good thread from long ago on the atonement subject.

And here is an excellent podcast on the seven theories:


#441

IMO it’s more like 1 Cor.6:17.

Don’t have one.

Or one might call it the “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” model.

Or the Mystery model. As in mysteries like, how can God exist? What’s beyond the universe? Can it be expanding? Why isn’t there nothing? The Trinity, etc.

Pr.3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

1 Cor.1: 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not in wisdom of discourse, so that the cross of the Christ should not be emptied of its power.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those indeed perishing, but to us being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it has been written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

and the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”b

20 Where is the wise man ? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those believing.

22 Forasmuch as both Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 we, however, preach Christ having been crucified, a stumbling block indeed to the Jewish and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but those called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.


#442

So how much sin can Jesus’ death cover before it’s ineffective? If Jesus’ death can cover “a little bit” of sin (however arbitrarily defined), why can’t it cover “a lot” of sin?


#443

Thanks Paidion… after Gabe’s somewhat surprising drive-by comment to which I asked for a modicum of clarification to which he then declined I went and found further thoughts of his on the matter via the search window, and so got the gist in part at least of where he was coming from.

I have to say it seems unfortunately simplistic to assume that adoption as being presented and thereby dismissed BECAUSE it is assumed it undermines the reality of the Fatherhood of God over all mankind; which is a complete misreading and misunderstanding of biblical adoption as further expounded by Paul.

By virtue of creature-hood humanity stands as the children of God, which Paul makes abundantly clear, as per…

Acts 17:28-29 For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

So GM’s belief that one is left with the devastating conclusion that he or she…

…is not the child of God by origin, from the first of its being, but may possibly be adopted into his family, its love sinks at once in a cold faint: where is its own father, and who is this that would adopt it?

…is a TOTAL misreading of Paul! (as you know, there are of course other biblical demarcation as to the children of God but these are determined within their defined contexts etc).

GM’s supposition as expressed above, from what I’ve read thus far, seems to be the kernel of his objection in a nutshell. Paul’s ‘adoption’ motif, however, is NOT borne of these modern sensitivities, BUT rooted squarely in his own people’s history, i.e., Israel’s story. Israel was sovereignly chosen by God through no virtue or merit of her own… taken out of and created from the broader spread of humanity to be His special priestly servant-nation on behalf of humanity.

Ex 19:5-6 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

Deut 7:6-7 “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples.

The DECLARATION of “sonship” i.e., being brought from far to near, from nothing to something… into the very position of heir WAS Israel’s adoption; hence Paul uses the same motif with regards to Gentiles. They were ‘Neville Nobodies’ with regards to the blessing and covenants of God… BUT NOW brought near and into the very family (no longer ‘sinners’) via the gospel — sons of God and thus adopted. Now what you previously mentioned with regards to “maturity” etc ALSO factors into that as well; but is not contrary to it.

Ex 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Rom 9:4 &…who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises.


#444

Jesus’ death is effective both for the for sins of an unregenerate teenager & the much longer life lived in sin of an unregenerate 100 year old on her death bed.