The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#445

If Hitler continued to slaughter Jews while professing a belief in Jesus, could he have been saved while doing so? How about someone who habitually rapes children yet professes to believe in Christ?

“I do not think willful rebellion against God is covered by just having a belief on Jesus. That means Hitler could have been saved by having a belief on Jesus all while slaughtering the Jews.”

"… If a person loves their sin, they will seek to justify it and say they are not saved by anything they do. If a person loves Jesus (GOD), they will keep His commandments (John 14:15). For if we are to abide in His love, we have to keep His commandments (John 15:10). Abiding in God’s love is not a one time event. We have to continue in his love (John 15:9).

“…The Bible says, “For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world works death.” (2 Corinthians 7:10).”

“…So in order to have repentance, you need to have a Godly sorrow (Which means you are going to want to seek forgiveness with the Lord).”

“Peter tells Simon to repent of his wickedness by way of a prayer towards God in the hope that he may be forgiven of his sin of trying to pay for the Spirit.”

" “Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.” (Acts of the Apostles 8:22)."


#446

If a believer continued to commit adultery in lusting after a woman (Mt 5:28; 15:19) while professing his belief in Jesus, could he have been saved while doing so?


#447

If Hitler continued to slaughter Jews while professing a belief in Jesus, could he have been saved while doing so? How about someone who habitually rapes children yet professes to believe in Christ?

In light of the following Scriptures should those who profess faith in Christ feel secure about their salvation if they died while in the act of adultery:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eonian salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Hebrews 5:9).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).


#448

I suppose - from his (or her) perspective - perhaps folks need to put it, into simpler language?

But first, an email reflection I got today:

An “And Then Some” Life - Encouragement for Today - November 9, 2018

Let me quote an interesting part:

In Genesis 24, we read that Rebekah was going about her normal business at the water well. As she emerged with a pitcher of water on her shoulder, she met a man who would change her life forever.

This man was on a mission from Abraham to find a bride for his son, Isaac. Abraham’s servant had devised a clever test to sift out the best bridal candidate. He prayed that while he stood by the well amidst all the daughters of the townspeople, the right girl would exhibit a servant’s heart. He prayed, “May it be that when I say to a young woman, ‘Please let down your jar that I may have a drink,’ and she says, ‘Drink, and I’ll water your camels too’ — let her be the one you have chosen for your servant Isaac” (Genesis 24:14a, NIV).

As we see in our key verse, that’s exactly what happened when he met beautiful, virtuous Rebekah. “After she had given him a drink, she said, ‘I’ll draw water for your camels too, until they have had enough to drink.’ So she quickly emptied her jar into the trough, ran back to the well to draw more water, and drew enough for all his camels” (Genesis 24:19-20).

Now this wasn’t just like getting a few glasses of water. Verse 10 reveals the servant had 10 camels. Each camel could easily drink 25 gallons (almost 100 liters) of water. Imagine having to draw out and carry 250 gallons of water in the hot sun!

Now back to my forum response:


#449

What you’re rhetorically asking is certainly intuitive. However, I don’t think the line you seem to be drawing between “big sins” and “little sins” is scriptural. What are your sins, Origen? I’m sure you’ve done nothing like Hitler or a rapist. But what makes you think God will overlook your continual sinning and designate you as saved but not all other Christians’? What are the foundations for your belief that your continual rebellion can be covered by your faith but other Christians’ worse rebellion can’t be covered by theirs?


#450

@Origen

///
Jesus’ death is effective both for the for sins of an unregenerate teenager & the much longer life lived in sin of an unregenerate 100 year old on her death bed.
///

That seems to contradict your whole position, which is that a Christian with “a little” (arbitrarily defined) sin can be saved through faith while a Christian with “a lot” of sin can’t be saved by through faith.


#451

My comment was not about “a Christian”, but spoke of the “unregenerate”.

Can one who professes faith but lives in habitual unrepentant immorality be saved at the same time. Consider 1 Cor.5:1-5; 6:9-10.

Should those who profess faith in Christ feel secure about their salvation if they should die while knowing they are rebelliously committing a single willful sin, such as the act of adultery? Consider:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)


#452

I don’t know. What’s the answer? Do you rationalize all your sins as being “un-willful”? At what point is sin “habitual”?


#453

The answer is obviously no IMO.

Sin is sin, whether willful or not. Should one rationalize it. No.

Habitual refers to a habit. The meaning should be self evident.


#454

AFAIK I don’t have any sins. They’ve been dealt with as per 1 John 1:7,9:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

God doesn’t “overlook” sin, whether habitual or occasional. He commands all men to repent.

1 Cor.6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


#455

Have you sinned in the last month? If so, approximately how many times?


#456

It’s not self evident. If someone sins once a week is it “habitual”? Or is it once a month, once a season…?


#457

AFAIK the Scriptures don’t address that. They do, however, say:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

“…God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Hebrews 5:9).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).

“…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.” (1 Corinthians 16:22).

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

“And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

“…No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).

“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“…but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“…And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).


#458

Where did i draw a line between, or ever mention, “big sins” and “little sins”? What i posted was, & i quote:

“If Hitler continued to slaughter Jews while professing a belief in Jesus, could he have been saved while doing so? How about someone who habitually rapes children yet professes to believe in Christ?”

Mt.18: 8 Now if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eonian fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life one-eyed, than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire.

Should not even a single sin of any sort be avoided - always - and at all costs? Such as those listed by Paul & others in the New Testament, which are associated with exclusion from the kingdom of God:

1 Cor.6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal. 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph.5: 3 But let sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness not even be named among you, as also is proper to saints, 4 and filthiness, and foolish talking, or crude joking, which are not fitting, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For this you know, realizing that any fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous man, who is an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light— 9 for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth— 10 discerning what is well-pleasing to the Lord.


#459

With all due respect…this whole dialogue is sounding, like Origen taking the witness stand. And qaz being the chief prosecutor.

I wonder if the chief prosecutor…is questioning a Zombie, from the tribulation and the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE…in this video?


#460

“Jesus said that if one looks at a woman in lust, they have committed adultery already in their heart (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus did not say this was habitual lusting towards women here. He was speaking of a singular act of looking upon a woman in lust that could condemn a person to hell fire.”


#461

Seems ridiculous to me. How many people can honestly say they didn’t desire their spouse prior to marrying them?


#462

Origen, have you sinned in the last month? If so, approximately how many times?


#463

I suppose that might come under the category called “fornications”:

Mark 7: 18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Col.3: 1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things above, not the things on the earth. 3 For you have died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ youra life may be revealed, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death the members which are upon the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry, 6 because of which things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience,b 7 in which you also once walked when you were living in them. 8 But now you also put off all these things: anger, rage, malice, slander, foul language out of your mouth.

9 Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his practices, 10 and having put on the new, the one being renewed in knowledge according to the image of the one having created him, 11 where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, slave, and free; but Christ is all and in all.


#464

Origen,

I find that a better use of the verse is to say, “Whoever so lusts after a woman with the intent to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

If a person has truly committed adultery with a woman, it is not just the action itself that necessarily does it, it is the mindful intent to go out and pursue that action. Imagine if any man who has ever looked at a woman has committed adultery - that really doesn’t make any sense. Sexual desire is natural desire given from God.

Jason Staples said some interesting things on this: “So it is clear that the grammar is reflecting purpose: “anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her.” (“Covet” is preferable here in part because “covet” better reflects the intentionality reflected in the passage.) This is a critically important point; Jesus is not suggesting that any sexual thought or inclination towards a woman is sinful. Nor is he suggesting that such thoughts or attractions being triggered by a look are sinful.”

Also go to Luke 22:15, the word for lust/desire in greek is emithumeo. In the verse we see that Jesus himself lusts. Lust within the original use of the word just meant ‘to desire.’ Nowadays we always see lust as purely sexual, however I think that was not the case back then.

Have a good one!