The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#485

Only God will determine if you’re saved. Not me. I’m just wondering if you would be saved if the conditions for salvation you postulate are true.


#486

Here is how Calvinist Matt Slick defines " Lordship salvation":

“Though there are variations on what Lordship salvation really is, it is basically the view that in order to become a true Christian a person must receive Jesus as both Savior and Lord and that he must also cease from sin or be willing to cease from sin in order to be saved (i.e., repent). The controversy deals with whether or not salvation is a one- or two-step process. Is salvation by faith alone, and nothing beyond it is required (one step)? Or, is faith to be accompanied by a submission to the Lordship of Christ and repentance (two steps)–both of which result in salvation?” https://carm.org/what-is-lordship-salvation-and-is-it-biblical


#487

I’m not going to argue. I’m not going to call anyone stupid, nor do I wish anyone to call me stupid. But I am going to quote the words of the Lord Jesus, who explained Lordship Salvation pretty clearly:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:21-27)

Notice Jesus indicated that a person saying, “Lord, lord” does not in itself show that Jesus is their Lord. Some, who call Him “Lord” will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Who will enter the Kingdom then? Jesus said it’s the one who does the will of God. Then Jesus clearly taught them that doing the will of God does not consist of doing what they considered to be the will of God—prophesying in Jesus name, casting out demons in Jesus name, and doing many mighty works in His name. Jesus will say to such people, “I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of lawlessness.” What then is required to do the will of God? It is to do what Jesus told them to do. What He told them to do is found just previous to this. Those who obey those words of Jesus, He compared to a wise person who builds his house on a rock which stands against the rains and floods. His “house” is his life, and the rock is the Lord Jesus Himself.

Here is what Jesus just told them to do (Matthew 5,6, and 7)

  1. Do not be angry with your brother.
  2. Be reconciled to any brother who has something against you.
  3. Do not look at a woman with lustful intent.
  4. Do not allow any aspect of your body to cause you to sin.
  5. Do not separate from your wife.
  6. Do not take an oath.
  7. Do not resist an evil person. If he tries to force you to do something, do it. If he wants to sue you for something, give him even more than he asks.
  8. Give to him who begs from you. Lend to him who wants to borrow from you.
  9. Do loving deeds to them who hate you, and pray for them.
  10. Do not display your righteousness in front of people in order to get recognition.
  11. When you give to the needy, let no one know.
  12. Don’t pray loudly in order to be recognized by others. Pray in secret.
  13. Don’t pray using empty words. Pray sincerely.
  14. When you fast, don’t look gloomy.
  15. Don’t lay up material treasures that can be destroyed or stolen, but lay up spiritual treasures that last permanently.

#488

Is that what Scripture teaches. For another opinion:


#489

Paidion, Jesus say in John that the will of the Father is to BELIEVE. That’s what the video in the OP is about.


#490

Jesus said other things as well, as we all know. He ‘fleshes out’ what it means to believe.
That was kind of a pun, unintended…


#491

Dave, is your new avatar YOU? It doesn’t look like the same person as depicted in your former avatar.


#492

No. It’s a star in the Lord of the Rings movie. Unless Dave is a dead ringer.

Series Misses the Point of Middle-Earth


#493

I’m neither dead nor a ringer!! Though I could totally rock that helmet. :grin:


#494

I believe what permanently makes a person a genuine Christian is that he has been born again (by receiving Christ into his heart):

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” John 3:3.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. John 1:12-13.

I don’t believe a Christian can lose his salvation by sinning/ doing “bad works,” including suicide. Genuine Christians are not saved by good works, and so they cannot lose their salvation by bad works:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. John 10:28-30.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. Galatians 2:20a.

For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. Colossians 3:3. [Sounds pretty secure, doesn’t it?]

Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5.

To paraphrase grace teacher Paul Ellis—

In John 15:6, when Jesus said, “If anyone does not abide in Me [have a relationship], he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned,” he was NOT referring to unfruitful Christians: they are lovingly “lifted up” by the vinedresser. (In John 15:2, Strong’s G142 - airō, sometimes translated “cut off” or “taken away,” would better be translated in this verse, “1. to raise up, elevate, lift up.”)

In 15:6 he was transitioning to warn those who refuse to believe that he is the Son of God. He was describing those who are looking for life outside of the true vine.

John 15:2 encourages Christians. John 15:6 warns non-Christians. (See Ellis’s discussion here.)

I was Arminian for many years, but now I am happy to proclaim, once saved, always saved.”


#495

Some would consider suicide to be a form of murder, if not selfishness also, which means one does not have, or had & lost, the salvation called aionion life:

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionion life residing in him. (1 Jn.3:15).

So, arguably, if someone professes Christ or has genuine faith but then becomes a murderer, they never had, or have lost their, salvation.

Given that good works are a necessary fruit of salvation, their absence indicates one was never saved or they rejected their salvation.

Salvation is received as a gift. If one throws away that gift after receiving it, then they don’t have it any more. The change from having good works to no longer having good works but a sinful lifestyle in one who once genuinely believed would be a sign that they had cast away the gift of salvation.

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Lk.8:13)

holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. (1 Tim.1:19)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Tim.4:1)

But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith (Col.1:22-23a)

How much worse punishment do you think will he deserve, the one having trampled upon the Son of God, and having esteemed ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and having insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb.10:29)

Gal.5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

1 Cor.3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Lk.22:32a But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail.


#496

Sometimes we can see things, from multiple perspectives. For example. I like to mediate on divine light.

So I tell my yoga friends, I’m following:

And my Japanese spiritual friends I follow:

My Quaker friends:

My Native American friends:

And my Eastern Orthodox friends:

And my Buddhist friends:

It’s all the same meditation - packaged from different perspectives


#497
  • Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17.

That sounds permanent to me.

‘I have been crucified and no longer live.’ Gal. 2:20.

That sounds permanent to me.

‘I died, and my life is now hidden with Christ in God.’ Col. 3:3.

That sounds permanent to me.

Origen, do you honestly believe that committing sin could cause you to un-die and become unhidden with Christ in God, somehow becoming un-born again of God? That’s like saying a butterfly can go back to becoming a caterpillar, if he so chooses. (And while a butterfly may visit a dung heap instead of a flower, that doesn’t change the permanency of what he was made to be.)

As Qaz has argued, who is to say exactly which or just how many sins a professing Christian must commit for another to say with certainty that he is not saved? We don’t have x-ray vision into a man’s spirit.

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:7.

While ongoing obedience to the truth is a good indicator of spiritual health, it is not the same thing as salvation. In this temporal classroom, we are commanded to take up our cross daily and deny ourselves (Lk. 9:23). But we still have a free will. And there is a fallen archangel, the god of this world, who seeks to tempt us, cut in on us, and kill us.

As Davo has argued, Christians can lose rewards and benefits through disobedience; but that is a far cry from the false idea of a genuine Christian losing his salvation and going to hell (followed by being sent by God to the remedial lake of fire).


#498

Neither of these passages speak about being “born again” or “born of God.”
The Greek word for “to give birth” is “τικτω”. The word used in these passages is a form of “γενναω” (“to beget” or “to generate.”

Nine months before a child is born, a begetting or generation must take place. This happens when a sperm cell is united to an egg cell. That is just the beginning of a new human life. The fertilized egg must now multiply and grow into the human being that will emerge nine months later.

A person who is begotten again, will spend a lifetime in the “womb” and after he dies will some day be born again—born into the resurrection.

Notice that the passage you quoted from John 1:12-13, states that all who received Him, who believed in His name, He gave the RIGHT to become children of God. It doesn’t say that they became the children of God immediately. No, such people have only entered the door of salvation. Then they spend a lifetime in the process of being saved from sin—not merely from the penalty of sin, but from sin itself! God wants holy, righteous people. He is not interested just in getting people to heaven, and He certainly doesn’t want to take sinning people into His presence; they first must be delivered from sin. They angel said to Joseph, "Call his name “Jesus” (Saviour) for He will save (deliver) his people from their SINS. If they are not delivered from sin in this life, then they will have to be delivered in the next. God wants righteous people.

So again, by receiving Christ and entrusting oneself to Him, we only enter the door of salvation. After a lifetime of growing in the “womb” so to speak, we die, but will some day be born again into the resurrection.
Jesus taught, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live…” (John 11:25 ESV).

Saved from what? All the NT writers speak of being saved FROM SIN How can you be saved from sin, while you continue living in sin?

The apostle Paul taught that God will render to everyone according to their works, and that it is necessary to persevere in good works in order to receive lasting (or everlasting) life, while their will be wrath and fury those who continue in life, serving themselves:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil … but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good … For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)


#499

Hermano, do you consider your body to be a “new creation”, or is it still in need of maintenance, capable of aging, bleeding, dying, feeling pain, suffering sickness & disease? Is your soul - mind, emotions & will - a “new creation”, or still capable of evil thoughts, feelings, & decisions, being tempted & sinning? Paul says it is the human spirit of believers that is joined to the Lord (1 Cor.6:17) & repeatedly states that the Lord be with your spirit (2 Tim.4:22; Gal.6:18; Phil.4:23; Philemon 1:25, etc). If newly born again Christians were a perfect “new creation” in every way, they would not still be in need of transformation:

Rom.12:2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind, for you to prove what is the good and well-pleasing and perfect will of God.

In the same context Paul says:

Gal.2:18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

Joseph Prince rightly emphasizes God Omnipotent’s grace, goodness & never ending unconditional love (except for his endless torments notion, which he rarely mentions), but how often does he warn his listeners as the apostle Paul does later in the same epistle:

Gal.5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, contentions, dissensions, factions, 21 envyings, drunkennesses, carousing, and things like these, as to which I forewarn you, even as I warned before, that those doing such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

That quote looks more like Colossians 3:3 than 2:20:

Col.2:20a If you have died with Christ,
Col.3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Which is in the context of:

Col.3: 5 Therefore put to death the members which are upon the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry, 6 because of which things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience,b

Does that sound like people can still keep doing those things & consider themselves saved?

Yet does not Joseph Prince teach one can be addicted to such things as those & other things in the following verses & still be saved:

1 Cor.6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph.5: 3 But let sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness not even be named among you, as also is proper to saints, 4 and filthiness, and foolish talking, or crude joking, which are not fitting, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For this you know, realizing that any fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous man, who is an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light— 9 for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth— 10 discerning what is well-pleasing to the Lord.

Is there some reason i shouldn’t? There are many examples of people who say they have “lost their faith”. If a sinner can become a saint, why can’t a saint become a sinner again? Did not the angels of heaven become demons? Yet they will once again become angels.

Scripture says we are to examine ourselves (2 Cor.13:5). Do we have “x-ray vision” into our own spirit to determine “with certainty” of 100% that we are saved & OSAS is true? Can believing one is OSAS while addicted to sins which exclude one from the kingdom of God (e.g. 1 Cor.6:9-10) lead to a false sense of security & a licence to sin as much as one wishes? Even if OSAS is true, it seems the safer course is to heed Jesus’ warnings to forsake all sin at all costs (Mk.9:47, etc).

Prov.28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

It seems to me that ongoing obedience is, in Scripture, clearly a necessary requirement for salvation:

Heb.5:9 and having been perfected, He became the author of eonian salvation to all those obeying Him

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.

1 John 2:3 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.


#500

You have made it clear, Origen!

Thank you for those many verses that indicate the necessity of righteousness. To be in the process of being saved FROM sin, we must be willing to submit to the authority of Christ. He said, "He who hears these words of mine and DOES them, is like the wise man who builds his house on rock. That “house” will withstand the storms that come against it.


#501

Dallas Willard thought most of the larger question of “lordship salvation” could be solved by discussing the nature of faith. Faith that trusts leads to actions (deeds) and faith that just assents is passive. This passive faith isn’t Biblical faith. I realize this discussion has gone beyond the original questions…

What I understand from the apostle Paul is that we are saved by faith in the present and will be judged by our works in the future. Our present faith leads to good deeds. These deeds are “badge marks” of the Christian life and are necessary for our future vindication.


#502

Origen,

I would agree that there is a sin leading to “death,” a sin that leads us away from God. John warns that hatred and lawlessness are such sins. Those that that practice such sins do not have eternal life. There are too many warnings against apostasy to ignore. This sins seem to be long term habits, not just one term actions…However, I think suicide is different, especially for the mentally ill. They are ending their life out of despair and depression not hate (I do even think self hate most of the time). I like the way the Catholic church handles this specific case.


#503

I’m not sure exactly what “works” is intended to encompass. Paul also says:

1 Cor.4:5 Therefore do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord shall have come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the motives of the hearts; and then the praise will come to each from God.

Similarly:

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil.

Matthew 10:26
So do not be afraid of them. For nothing is concealed that will not be uncovered, or hidden that will not be made known.

Jeremiah 16:17
For My eyes are on all their ways. They are not hidden from My face, and their guilt is not concealed from My eyes.

Romans 2:16
This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Mark 4:22
For everything hidden is meant to be revealed, and everything concealed is meant to be brought to light.

Luke 8:17
For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and nothing concealed that will not be known and illuminated.

Luke 12:2
There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.


#504

What is your exact point? i think we agree, but am not sure?