The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#505

I’m wondering “exactly what “works” is intended to encompass”. By works someone might get the idea of e.g. “works of charity”, such as helping out at a “soup kitchen” for the homeless. Yet there is the list of Scriptures i posted that imply something else quite different or possibly much more than just outward “good deeds”.


#506

NT Wright maintains that EVERY time Paul uses ‘works’ he means ‘Torah’.


#507

Now I understand. Yes, there is a strong emphasis in Scripture on both outer actions and inner motivations as well as public actions and private actions. Our “good works” should not be done for the praise of other people. Our inner thoughts we be judged. Our private actions will also be judged.


#508

Romans 2 seems to go beyond just Torah, but I’m to lazy to see if the underlying word in the translation refers to “works” or another word for deeds. Overall though I tend to agree with Wright most of the time and James Dunn almost all of the time. Is Wright saying this about the term “work” or “work of the law.”

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.


#509

My impression is that Wright thinks that Paul’s use of the generic term “works” typically assumes the full expression, “works of the Law” (Torah), which can be a poor and sect-like index of genuine righteousness and love. But Paul can more positively use “good works” as here or in Ephesians 2 to point to truly “doing good,” which is a reliable indicator for judgment and of relationship to God.


#510

Here are someinteresting articles:


#511

Haha. I read an article by a ligonier person claiming that tw was going to hell for denying justification by faith. Which of course if they had actually read him, it ain’t so.
In any case, 1 Tim 1.5. What really counts.
What did you find interesting about the articles?


#512

If someone thinks works need to evidence one’s faith (as I think Wright’s critics do), they’re really splitting hairs to claim Wright doesn’t teach justification by faith alone and they do.


#513

If that’s true, then we are ALL in danger here. Even me, for my theory on the tribulation and the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE…as the most probable, end-times tribulation scenario.

Nothing, really. Other then they offer critics, of N.T. Wright’s view - of Paul’s justification by faith. Remember, I pretty much side, with the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. Bring up Got Questions (non-denominational) views for discussion. Along with the Pathoes, Catholic and Evangelical articles. And hope the zombies stay away - during my lifetime.


#514

And may you live long and prosper!


#515

Thank you. And from today’s I can hear you

image


#516

Paidion, I think you may be confusing instantaneous, permanent salvation

-from hell (“the realm of the dead”)
-by being born again/born from above, which includes being “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit” (Eph. 1:13),

with the subsequent sanctification process of the genuine Christian, which involves learning to stand in the power of the Holy Spirit against the world, the flesh, and the devil, learning to be “saved” from their seductions.

Psalm 49:8-9, 15 (NIV)

8
the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough—
9
so that they should live on forever
and not see decay.
15
But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead;
he will surely take me to himself.

Again, when a person moves from death to life by receiving Christ and being born again, he is “saved” from hell and the subsequent lake of fire, and begins the salvation process of sanctification—from inside out, by the Spirit of Jesus now residing inside him.

The original 12 disciples (including Judas Iscariot) all did miracles before the cross, but the remaining 11 were only born again (saved from hell by receiving the Holy Spirit into their spirit and being sealed, and beginning the inside-out sanctification process) after Jesus died and rose from the dead, an instantaneous event noted here:

And with that he [the risen Christ] breathed on them [the disciples] and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit." John 20:22.


#517

Sorry, on 2 fronts, been busy and have not been seeing… Do you believe in a Hell?

Let me re phrase that, your answer presupposed an idea that you may entertain the idea of an afterlife torture, just wanting to clarify?


#518

If ETC is meant - nope
If anni is meant - nope
Beyond that I don’t care to speculate much.


#519

you beat me to the punch.


#520

I’m learning, brother! :slight_smile:


#521

Yea, aren’t we all :wink:


#522

There are other permutations on the word “Hell” that I wasn’t addressing - in other words, those 2 approaches - ect and anni - don’t exhaust the possibilities of what happens, say, after death. But as to Hell in those 2 senses - I’m just not down with them.


#523

I am totally aware of your position, and used to hold that very view myself. But there is no passage in the New Testament that speaks of salvation from hell. The angel told Joseph to call Mary’s baby “Jesus” for He would save His people from their SIN. The angel said nothing about salvation from hell.

Salvation from sin is a process—a life-long process. Call it “sanctification” if you wish, but salvation from sin is a necessity in order to be righteous in the eyes of God.

Paul wrote to the Philippians:
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)

As you can see, Paul regarded salvation as a process to be “worked out.” In order for this to happen, we must coöperate with the enabling grace of God which trains us to renounce impiety and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives. Training doesn’t happen instantaneously; it takes time.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

This is a lifetime of training. However, it will some day be completed when Jesus returns.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

There is great danger in the doctrine of instantaneous salvation from hell. Although the teachers of the doctrine don’t say it, the implication is, that when you get saved, your future in heaven is secure, no matter how you live your life now.


#524

I do not believe in once “once saved always saved,” but I do believe that the New Testament speaks of Jesus deliverance of our sin as complete.

Ephesians 2:5b You have been saved from the punishment of sin by His loving-favor. Revelation 1:5b To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood.

This does not negate the future aspect of salvation.

“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” (Romans 5:9-10)

James Akin has a nice balanced view of this.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/pastpres.htm