The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is lordship salvation a counterfeit form of the gospel?


#525

Here I go again. What has Jesus NOT done that you would say I do not believe in ‘once saved always saved’? Maybe the question is what do you think Jesus really did? The Idea that deliverance of our sin as complete surly says that He did something.

Maybe think of it as all are “Reconciled to God” in other words, as opposed to thinking in terms of saved from afterlife destruction, maybe Christ came to try to assure those ‘AT THAT TIME’ were on the same page as him. Thus the saved verbiage is centered and exclusively for the first century. Forward to the current debate, yes Jesus was the path to a relationship with the Father, but the black and white imagery of heaven and hell is, well, should be beyond us.:neutral_face:


#526

What “translation” are you quoting here? Whatever it is, it is not a translation but a paraphrase, seemingly based on the author’s prejudices.

Consider an actual translation, for example that of the ESV:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved — and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7 ESV)

I realize, of course, that Paul in Ephesians 2:5 speaks of having been saved as a completed fact. It is a perfect passive participle. However, this completed act of salvation speaks of being saved from “being dead in our trespasses.” For we have been made alive in Christ Jesus—made spiritually alive. This is a different use of the word from the continuous process of being saved from sin throughout life. When we have been saved from “being dead in our trespasses,” we have but entered the door of salvation. Even entering that door is possible only by the grace of God. However, the process of being saved from SIN, must continue until we are totally delivered from sin by the enabling grace of God (Titus 2).


#527

Don sees it differently than me. :smiley:

There is no ‘process’, only an understanding of what God has done. Don will forever sling verses at you. Take them as you will. He is a good guy, from all I know, but just understand there are alternative ways of thinking about the subject.

Good luck, and understand that I only give an opinion.


#528

I agree that Jesus reconciled all to God, by his death. However, there seems to be our need for appropriation of this by faith. I agree that in the end all will be saved. But I also take the warnings about apostasy seriously.

Is your position close to C. Baxter Kruger?


#529

Sorry for the crappy translation, I didn’t really notice it had smuggled in the judgment. I wasn’t focused on that. It just popped up when I tossed the verse in google. I’m not a fan of the ESV in general, but it does handle the passage better.

So you agree to an initial salvation! Yes, Christ is saving us from our sin in the present. Thank you for highlighted the present part. I easily overlook that part. I would also say we will be delivered from judgment in the future…I think you might have more common ground with Hermano in regards to initial salvation.


#530

So Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient for whatever you think needed to be done?


#531

His gift was enough, but I do think we need to accept this gift.


#532

That is the rub. The acceptance is the door to ‘understanding’ what Christ did and is doing as opposed to the idea we need to somehow believe in the evangelical Jesus to escape some crazy afterlife torture.:roll_eyes:


#533

I’m waiting for Dave…


#534

Chad - I get the impression that Christ is not important for you at all. Is that true? I don’t mean any offense - but what do you think of Christ at this moment?


#535

I’ll say that we may well see Jesus in a whole different light, I see him as the Messiah, savior of Israel, the Redeemer sent to God’s people, the door that opened the relationship between the nations (Gentiles, those not of God’s original people) and God. It was Love that was shown by Jesus. Pure and simple.

Did I answer de’ question?


#536

I don’t want to badger you, Chad. Go forth and multiply my friend.


#537

Badger away, that’s what we are here for.


#538

If I understand Chad correctly he is close to C. Baxter Kruger. Christ has already reconciled the world to him. The only problem is our subjective awareness of this fact. Judgment is not an act of God, but an act of resisting what God has done.


#539

I have no Idea who Kruger is, but my take is that when you realize what God has done, it will have an impact on your life today. Now. When we quit worrying about Judgment, our own or others, we begin to live in harmony with God and let all that other stuff to him, who’s it is his to deal with.


#540

Here is a short clip of Kruger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ZpZ3So6yA

Is this close to where you are coming from?


#541

Trespasses <παραπτώμασιν> paraptōmasin in this passage is indeed a different Greek word than sins of the passage <ἁμαρτίαις> hamartiais, although they are indelibly linked, AND Paul does use the two words together SHOWING THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE with regards to how trespasses & sins WERE dealt with as a past completed act of redemption — as per the immediate context of the very passage in view, such as NOT taken into consideration by your thought above; here it is…

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses AND sins,

Verse one with regards to “trespasses” and “sins” is IDENTICAL (other than the neuter/feminine, but that changes nothing about how these words relate to each other) to that of the condition of “trespasses” of verse 5, i.e., what has happened to trespasses HAS LIKEWISE happened to sins in this passage — according to Paul.


#542

How does Kruger explain the passages that teach punishment / exclusion from the kingdom?


#543

He believes they are self imposed. I do not agree with Kruger. To me he focuses on the “already aspect” of Christ acts, but not the “not yet” in his overall understanding of the atonement. However, he helped me so the power of objective atonement theory. I agree with him that in some way we are already reconciled to God. But, there is seem to be a way in which we are not yet. I also tend to see God’s judgment as more active then passive…

“All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor. 5:18-21).