The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is Penal Substitution a dangerous doctrine?

Jim, I believe there must be something about the cross that is substitutionary (though not penal), but can’t get my head around it. I know it’s about grace. Since I don’t know exactly what you believe it’s hard to know how I may be misrepresenting your view. I would agree with all the above people in the way they described PSA. The difficulty I have is that God took his wrath out on Jesus. I don’t see this way of putting wrath on the innocent the way God works or what is necessary so that he can forgive. I see it as necessary that he would condone Jesus suffering for our sake that we might be healed, not by retribution, but by grace. I realize the semantics are all very difficult.

I enjoyed reading this most recent article here… therebelgod.com/2011/03/gods … stice.html
This article of Derek’s has been even more thought provoking, for me, than the rest.

Now this is a gospel I feel like myself, and others, can finally rally behind - a God that truly has grace and really forgives. PSA seems very incoherent. How is it that God has grace and really forgives if first he has to take out wrath on Jesus? As a EU I know you, Jim, believe in God’s unconditional love. Others really don’t, that think God’s promises are only for some that can, in their own aiblity, come to some intellectual assent about PSA.

It was interesting to read Derek say in another post about what church he attends that you can’t find one that believes everything perfectly, that he strives for one that exalts grace. I suppose some churches that believe PSA rely heavily on grace, that we needed the violent atonement to be forgiven. What is confusing to me is, that it’s at this point, that Derek says they’ve missed the whole enchilada by not recognizing that God is not for retribution, but restorative justice. Go figure? No wonder I’m confused. :confused: So, I’m still asking myself the same question I started with…how dangerous is this PSA in terms of how we embrace what grace really is, if embracing grace is what really matters.

Going to Big Bear for a couple of days. See ya all when we get back. :stuck_out_tongue:

I see from the comments that there is a tendency for some to completely reject that the Bible teaches that God’s justice is in any way retributive, while I see the Bible teaching that God’s justice is both retributive and corrective. I cannot accept the extreme views that God’s justice is only corrective or only retributive. And if the view that God’s justice is only corrective is at the heart of rejecting that the Son voluntarily accepted punishment planned by the triune God and turned over for execution by evil forces, then I reject such an extreme view that appears to exclude important teachings from the Bible.

Does anybody here who rejects any concept of the Son voluntarily accepting punishment planned by the triune God also accept that God’s justice is both retributive and corrective? Or does everybody who rejects that the Son voluntarily accepting punishment planned by the triune God also propose that God’s justice is only corrective with no component of retribution?

I apologize that for “now” I’m not going to take the time develop a defense that the Bible teaches that God’s justice is both retributive and corrective, but I want to focus on how rejection of any concept of divine retributive justice impacts rejection of any concept of penal substitution.

I’ll also note that I agree with Alex that God can tolerate, interact, and touch sinful people, but I don’t see that implying that the Son never accepted punishment on our behalf. Also. I reject harsher points of Reformed penal substitution such as teaching that every sin justly condemns every sinner to everlasting torment with no chance of liberation. I also reject any concept of the Father always wanting to condemn us but the Son always prevents that.

A few years ago Christian circles were buzzing because of “that heretic” Steve Chalke. Whenever someone tells me to avoid a particular preacher, or not read a book, I usually end up buying it and hearing what the person has to say. Steve Chalke’s book The Lost Message of Jesus was really good concerning penal substitution (Chapter 10 is the controversial chapter, but the rest of the book puts it into context). It made me realise that Jesus’ mission was so much more than the common views. Read the book, don’t let me spoil it for you!

That said, after reading this discussion, I have a few observations/comments:

  1. Yes, Christ is a major factor. But we should not forget Matt 25:34-45 and James 2:24. It’s not just about “faith in Christ” but also about what we do. I firmly believe it’s about our heart attitude – out motives. Also
    1 John 2:10: Whoever loves his brother lives in the light…
    In fact, a lot of 1 John talks about love. If our actions do not communicate a message of love to others, does God really look down on us and say, “Yes, (s)he’s got it right because (s)he’s got faith in me”? I think God wants us to love others because of our love for him. I wonder if “faith alone” is actually a false sense of security?

  2. I, too, think that a lot of churches are much like the Pharisees. The people are very nice and loving, but I find a lot of the structure (ie, leadership) to be exercising control over the congregation: things must be done their way, with their theology and with their say so. No church is perfect, so I don’t think that should be the sole reason for leaving a church. I think we should set an example. It’s got me into trouble before, and no doubt will again. But I don’t fear the church leadership, so I stand firm. And it’s tough.

  3. Concerning penal substitution, I’ll confess that I’ve not read much on the issue, but here’s a thought (and stop me if I’m wrong)… Jesus died for our sins. Combining this with Eph 6:12 (the battle is not with flesh and blood, etc), perhaps the cross is not so much about making sure we are acceptable before God (which promotes the notion of a wrathful, condemning God), but more about a battle between God and sin. It was the sin of humanity that put Jesus there: people wanting to have their own way, killing off what is truly good. Jesus accepts and fights sin. Sin leads him to death, but he shows victory (complete domination) over sin and death by coming back to life.

I think the truth is that God really does love us – it’s not that we are detestable before him because of sin (which I’ve heard preached many a time). By defeating sin, there is now a doorway into a perfect world.

  1. Concerning the prodigal son:

That’s fantastic!

ditto. I take out the “penal”, and I have trouble wrapping my head around the “substitutionary”

To me, the “penal” maligns God’s character. It makes him resemble an abusive father who punishes Jesus to vent his wrath. People imitate their god so you get people flamethrowing “in Jesus’ name”.

As for substitutionary, some of my thoughts are: Jesus was the perfect Lamb without spot or blemish. Satan fathered (corrupted) flesh in mankind in the Garden of Eden.

The second Adam came in the “likeness of sinful flesh,” to put to death the flesh that had come between man and Himself, to reverse the decision of Adam and its far reaching consequences. In crucifying flesh then being buried and raised to life by the Spirit, Jesus made a way for mankind to have restored intimacy with God, to partake of the Tree of Life, to enter the Holy of Holies, to sup with Him (Rev 3:20).

I don’t know if PSA contributes to it or not? But I have observed a complacency in those who embrace it, that they have a “get out of wrath free” card. I think they are wrong. I still have that Adamic choice each and every day. My flesh NEEDS to be put to death, I NEED to be crucified with Christ. Submitting to DEATH is not a BAD thing. Submitting to DEATH is a NECESSARY thing.

Interesting thoughts from Greg Boyd. First three threads on this page.

gregboyd.org/?s=Penal

Tom

Hi amy
– I’m sure you know well what the issues with PSA are as I’m sure you’ve read your dad’s great essay on it! It’s over here in Theology < Soteriology for those who have not.

And following is a very long discussion (one of the longest ever on this site!) about Penal Substitution. Very good stuff.

Your question though is much more specific: Is Penal Substitution a dangerous doctrine?
Dangerous how? and to whom? The one holding it, or those around the one holding it?

My return to Christ in the early 90’s revolved around this specific issue of Penal Substitution. I’d already given up on the vindictive, angry, punishing God who demanded the death of His own Son just to pay my penalty. I found that God detestable. And the mentor whose lectures guided me to another view used to say that “we tend to become like the God we worship” and it was his conclusion that those who embraced the violence of God for their own salvation were themselves more likely to be willing to use violence on those who disagreed with them…. Interesting thought but pretty unfair to those millions of peaceful, gentle souls for whom PSA is bedrock truth!

I’ve found it very ironic that, since I’ve embraced the Gospel of Universal Reconciliation, my attitudes towards those who do hold to Penal Substitution models of the Atonement are much softer and gentler – even though PSA appalls me more than ever! This leads to an observation that you may or may not agree with… But it seems to me that if a doctrine makes sense to you, and brings you comfort and peace, then what would your motivation be for discarding it for another? On the other hand, once I began to see the huge holes in the theory of PSA, I really had no choice but to discard it and search for another.

(And as an aside, I came to embrace Universalism by much the same method: Love and annihilation/ECT seemed incompatible, God’s Total Victory through Christ is incompatible with annihilation/ECT etc etc ===> Hello UR!!)

So, if I were to cling to the doctrine, knowing it to be false as I do, then THAT I think gets dangerous! (however, who actually holds to doctrines that they believe DON’T make sense??!!)

And so for me some of the most glaring flaws/inconsistencies/irrationalites of Penal Substitution Atonement simply demanded that I find a better explanation:

– A God who kills/annihilates/tortures unless He is loved is simply a tyrant; no better than King Nebuchadnezzar who tossed non worshipers into the flames of the furnace… that kind of leadership guarantees the heart of a rebel – not freely given love…

– It is simply a fiction that guilt and punishment can be passed from one to another. And attempting to pass it to an obviously innocent party makes it even worse… (yes, in civil law one can, for example, pay a fine for another; but not so in criminal law…)

– A God who is appeased by the death of an innocent is detestable to me…

– The murder of Christ was a monumental crime; Jesus Himself (John 19:11) calls it a “great sin”… PSA has God not only demanding this crime/sin but planning and executing it!! That for me is a terrible absurdity.

– It seems to me as if the horrible distortion of paganism is the notion that we can effect God into His attitude of forgiveness towards us. There WAS a “cost” to show us this was NOT the way of God; and on the Cross, that cost WAS “paid” (if such language must be used). If anything, the cost is being paid to US – so that WE might be won back to confidence and trust again.

If one takes away from the concept of Penal Substitution the fact that God is willing to do ANYTHING to effect our reconciliation back to Oneness with Him, (which brings us right to UR) then that is a good thing right?!!

So in short amy, I think that if we knowingly perpetuate distortions of God’s character (and I fully admit that those who yet hold to PSA have found ways they believe confront successfully what I see as horrific!) that yes, that IS dangerous in a way…

TotalVictory
Bobx3

PS – I agree with Tom that Boyd’s writings on the Atonement are very good… Go also to the writings essays section of his site and he expands on what Tom linked to… Boyd’s views are pretty similar to those of Weaver it’s seemed to me…

Great stuff, Tom. I’m signing up with Boyd for the “Christus Victor Penal Substitution view of the atonement.” Boyd is influencing me more and more.

Mikey G,

I agree full heartedly with what you are getting at here that faith is not giving intellectual assent to right ideas, but rather what is in our heart. What matters is faith in Christ because it’s what produces a real love in our heart for others. I would agree that this notion that faith is just intellectual assent does give a false sense of security. Faith is seen in what we do.

I’m glad I’ve not lost it, too, about the Prodigal Son and that there are others that can relate to my thinking.

Gem, I can certainly relate to your feelings that PSA alligns God’s character, as well as other things you said.

Thanks TV for your words. I have read my dad’s paper on PSA. It’s what got me started thinking on all of this stuff.

AndTGB, I 've got Boyd marked as a favorite so I can take the time to read his stuff.

I heard this view all through my teen years ---- and accepted it until I was in my late 20s.

This view seems to express the idea that Jesus died to save us from God. Otherwise, God would send us to everlasting punishment. It almost sounds as if Jesus accomplished something on the cross which divided the Son’s purpose from that of His Father. The Father’s intention was to send us all to hell forever, but the Son’s “finished work” insured that some of us would not participate in this intended destiny.

This will probably have been argued elsewhere (if someone can point me in the right direction, I’d be most appreciative!)… I came across this verse:

Rom 5:9 (NIV): Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

For the last year, I’ve not been a supporter of us being victims of God’s wrath, and I’m not about to jump back into bed with the idea… but I’ll need some help.

I probably ought to add that I find Romans a tough book to understand, so I’m probably missing something.

Mikey

My reply would be that because Jesus saves from sin (not the punishment for sin) - as exemplified by those who crucified him being told that Jesus came to turn each one from his iniquity that it is the turning from sin and its attendant misery and loss (hell if you will) that saves from further wrath.

Here’s a quote I like from a book I’ve been reading lately by a 19th century man called Thomas Baldwin Thayer . He was a Unitarian but I find his book The Theology of Universalism (of the Christian, not denying wrath and hell persuasion) a wonderful read.

The whole book is free at Google Books:
books.google.com/books?id=ZKP_TU … text#c_top

Thanks Jeff. I particularly found the points about Luke 4:16-21 very interesting.

, Thomas Baldwin Thayer"]Why did Jesus stop in the middle of the sentence, and leave out the important declaration, “and the day of vengeance of our God?” doubly and trebly important if he came to save us from this. How do believers in this doctrine explain the omission!

Whilst a very interesting point, and one that does add a little weight to the universalist argument, I think we should be careful about forming arguments based on what isn’t written. Yes, there may have been some great theological reason for why Jesus stopped there. But it’s speculation.

(Much like the ECT argument from Rev 20:10 where, because the devil, beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire to be “tormented day and night forever and ever,” they assume all non-Christians will suffer the same fate. Just because the Bible doesn’t say the opposite, that doesn’t make it right.)

Hi MikeyG, can’t keep up and missed your question and all the other posts to follow.

What I get from this verse is that since we are brought near to God, embrace His way, as a result of the cross, then we know we’ll be saved from His wrath that comes for the disobedient. His blood clears our consciences of guilt, draws us to God, changes us so that we will not be candidates for wrath, since wrath is for those that have yet to turn to God.

I
Faith, coming into relationship with God, is why we avoid wrath. There is a sense in which God saves us from the consequence of our sin, as he teaches us to die to self and live for God, but not because he took out all His anger on Jesus and no longer sees, or takes seriously, our sin.

This,anyway, is what I’ve been noticing, more and more, in scripture.

Boy, amen to all that!
If PSA is not a dangerous doctrine, it’s certainly a problematic one. I think PSA is what people who complain about “cosmic child abuse” are really railing against. There is certainly a substitutionary element of atonement, but I think the reason that Jesus had to suffer and die was not to “take the necessary punishment of God on our behalf” but because in order to win the victory over sin and death (which was the goal) he had to become sin on our behalf so that he could remove the curse of its wages (death) by being resurrected from the dead. Since it’s true that the wages of sin is death, then to become sin for us (by taking all of our sin upon himself) caused him to suffer the wages (death). So as I see it, the “punishment” was not God’s punitive wrath being poured out on him, but rather the “natural” consequences of having taken all of our sin on himself.
Ah, but then comes the resurrection…which means that death (the wages of sin) was defeated at the resurrection. So I don’t see it as retributive punishment at all, nor do I see it as “corrective” unless it is in the sense of putting things right. It’s like God is saying; “Look, I’m going to defeat sin and death once and for all. I’m going to do that by having my Son take all of your sin on himself which will cause him to suffer the consequences of that, which is death. This is necessary so that sin can be destroyed. Then, I’m going to destroy death by raising him from the dead, and thereby thumb my nose at both sin and death.”

Sin was defeated by the physical death of Christ (which was the result of having taken all of our sin upon himself, which also caused the “separation from God” component of death, however temporary). Then death was defeated by the resurrection. Sound familiar? The last enemy to be destroyed is death…Which would mean that that part of Revelation has already been fulfilled in one sense, but I am also reminded of the “already/ not-yet” tension presented in Hebrews where all things are already subjected to Christ, but we do not yet see all subjected.

Sorry for the rambling and repetition; just thinking “out loud” here…

THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION
What would you think of a human father whose younger son committed a violent crime, but who punished his innocent older son “in his place” and was thereby “satisfied” so that he could let the younger son go scot free? Then… concerning our own wrongdoing, did someone actually “take our place” and presumably our punishment? George MacDonald put it this way:

They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the1 sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice. Be sure that the thing that God gives, the righteousness that is of God, is a real thing, and not a contemptible legalism. Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin.

If that is the case, some may ask, “Was it necessary then for Jesus, the Son of God to die? Yes, certainly it was necessary, or He would not have undergone death. He prayed to the Father, “O my Father, if possible let this cup of suffering and death pass from me.(Matt 26:39). And the Father didn’t release His Son from suffering and death. So obviously it was not only necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, but impossible for it to be otherwise—that is, if the purpose of God were to be realized.

So clearly it was necessary. But WHY was it necessary for the Son of God to die? Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews answer that question plainly:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Many cannot accept these reasons for the death of the Messiah. They make statements such as, “No one can be sinless! So it must be the case that God IMPUTES righteousness to me because of Christ’s death.” No, that is not the case at all. It does not follow that through His death the Anointed One of God imparted to us “imputed righteousness.” Rather, through His death, He made possible ACTUAL righteousness. The attainment of this righteousness is a process. This process is known as “salvation from sin,” and continues throughout our lives. The process ends in the day of Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul put it this way:

I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

So in the day of Jesus Christ, the process will be complete for all those in whom the process has begun, and who continue in it, coöperating with the enabling grace that God made available through the death of His Son.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

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amen

Thanks Dave.

Does this make sense:

“For me it all simply boils down to this; if eternal hell is the price for sin, then why isn’t Jesus sitting in hell paying that eternal price, for you and me? Him being sinless never ‘changed the price for sin’. And that ‘price’ was either ‘eternal hell’ or it was ‘physical death’. Being sinless never changed the price of sin, it simply ‘qualified’ sinless Jesus to vicariously pay ‘the price’ for us, that we might live again beyond the grave. And He did so by dying an UNJUSTIFIED physical death with a ‘very short’ time separated from the Father, in our place. And He did so, that we might be JUSTIFIED by His physical death. But the price was never 'eternal separation from God’ and it was never ‘burning in Hell eternally’ either. If that was ‘the price’ of sin, then that’s where Jesus should eternally be, making payment. Jesus being perfect did not change the price for sin. And that’s where orthodoxy’s vision needs spiritual glasses to see what religious men have missed.”