I can definitely relate to this.
I have a lot of gripes with Augustine, and I remember reading that Augustine may have been put into a stupid position because he had to use the Latin Vulgate for all his study, and it was not translated very well, so he got the wrong ideas about it, despite being a very devoted man.
It goes deeper than using ‘Latin’ only. If you look at what he believed prior to ‘Christianity’, you will discover something very ugly about Augustine’s Christianity.
Sobornost, I wish I had more time to discuss what I have learned and I appreciate your comments.
“t is clear that by 1970, many evangelicals had concluded that the traditional (and closely related) concepts of ‘substitutionary atonement’ and ‘penal substitution’ were being seen as one approach to the cross, among others.”
Nevermind the fact that PS is NOT the historical view. Christus Victor/Ransom is (or at least I think). My favorite exchange with a friend:
Friend: I believe in the historical view of hell!
Me: Great. Me too. Always nice to meet a (hopeful) Universalist.
Friend: head asplodes
Me: giggity
–DS
Yeah Substitution was made up (sorry, that’s how I see it) by Anselm and I think he didn’t even intend it to be taken as an actual atonement model…
Well, crap, now you got me interested.
Augustine was a disciple of Manichaeism until the age of 34 when he ‘converted’ to Christianity. The situation in which he left Manichaeism was due to his inability to obtain a position of power within the religion and remained an “auditor” the lowest level of follower despite obtaining the most highest academic achievement in Rome (professor of rhetoric in imperial court of Milan). For a man of such ego, knowledge and power to never attain any significant position or influence in the religion he devoted the last 17 years of his life too, made him angry. That is when he converted to Christianity, a fledgling religion which had significant depth of followers but a lack of unity in theological doctrine…
Now… what is a man with the the full range of knowledge of Manichaeism, who was a professor of rhetoric, master of neoplatonism to do? Well, let us look at what Manichaeism believes and cross it up with Neoplatonism and use Christian icons and archetypes and voila… Augustine Christianity. The serpent being Satan, Satan being the Fallen Lucifer, Fallen Cestial Beings, a battle between Good and Evil, etc the absolute freewill of man apart from God, eternal torment, many or all of these things were not Christian theology prior to Augustine but today is commonly taught as strong Christian doctrine.
Hi A Universalist -
Blessings to you (you’ll always be ‘The Universalist’ to me – A Universalist sounds a bit impersonal). Will read all that you say with interest here - you’ve got a great conversation going. I’m glad because I felt bad about jumping the queue over you in the ‘Wrath’ thread and plonking down some great wodge of ‘fact’ that seemed to close discussion down (regarding my ‘facts’ - I claimed Anselm was tenth century when he was eleventh century) 
Oh well, I said I can be irritating; and maths was never a strong point.
I’m taking a rest from atonement thinking at the moment because I have other things I must concentrate on and I do want to think Christus Victor through in the heart as well as in the head for Lent. But will keep reading - so I can watch your thoughts unfold (it’s very interesting what you have to say about Augustine of Hippo and Manicheanism - I was unclear on the details here 
)
A small matter of history that I’d like to share and leave on is this - Paidion has placed the modern rise of Satisfaction/Sunstituion theory with Luther. He’s right - there are strong elements of Satisfaction theory in Luther’s theology. However, what I said earlier to Cindy about Luther picturing Christ as a knight entering the list and fighting ’ for me’ is also true - and this is a Christus Victor motif. Luther was a passionate and muddled thinker - perhaps one of his most endearing features. It was Calvin who worked out PS with a precise and relentless legalistic logic.
This is a cracking conversation (and thanks for being kind)
Dick
The A is for Anthony.
Hi Anthony (and greetings to Canada!)
I still can’t pull myself away completely - because I keep not being able to finish things (but it’s bad to spend too much time on the net). Have a look at the Original Sin thread I’ve just started - because it unintentionally developed (people really are chatty here!). Your thoughts on Augustine would be much appreciated there. You may note I’ve said ‘he wasn’t all bad’ - but most of his influence was truly terrible (I’ve just got a big Quaker influence in me - which results in a tendency to see the good in people if I can: unless they are utterly depraved). Och but that’s just me
All good wishes
Dick