The Evangelical Universalist Forum

It would be better to not have been born...

Chris,

I’m not seeing the problem this verse poses for ECT. If ECT were true, then it would just be the case that comparatively speaking “to never have been born” will be objectively better than the “hell” that those in hell experience eternally. And certain that’s true. Never existing at all is better than existing in hell with no hope of escaping. And this would be true for each person (however many) that ends up there. I don’t see the problem.

But this ‘objective’ view IS problematic for UR, because however long hell lasts for any individual, it ends and gives way to ineffable bliss and eternal joys. So the comparison you need to make sense of Jesus’ statement falls through. No pain of a temporary hell can make it “objectively better” that the one suffering should never have been born if that person ends up in endless bliss with God.

The only thing I’ve been able to think of is to understand Jesus as describing the “subjective” perspective of the one suffering. He will experience a state of suffering that will “make him wish” he had never been born. But that so weakens Jesus’ statement as to empty it of any real punch. A LOT of people reach that subjective state in this life. That’s why people commit suicide. It’s hardly eschatological hell.

Which leads us to conclude (who said it above?) that Jesus is just predicting a subjective state of mind THIS SIDE of hell. He’s not talking about hell at all. He’s just saying that when the truth dawns on Judas, he’ll wish he had never been born…and he’ll act out accordingly whatever he ends up doing.

But it’s important that we not understand Jesus to be describing an objective state of affairs, because given UR it can never become objectively true for anyone who exists that his/her non-existence would be better than their worst suffering imaginable since beyond their suffering is a bliss that relativizes all conceivable suffering into virtual meaninglessness. Nothing can compare with the joys of being with God.

Tom

Jesus is known for his hyperbole.

So does YLT and the “KJV of the Catholics”, Douay–Rheims.

But I think the assumption of the problem is that God will not be all in all. This existence is temporary.

Is it just me, or does this quote have even further wait if we take into account the full implications of ECT for roughly 80-90% of all humanity…

to me it seems that if someone truly does believe in this traditional ECT, then it would be morally reprehensible and selfish to have children. If there is an 80%, or 50% or even 10% chance that your child will burn in unending agony forever, then it seems morally evil to bring any children into existence.

I know of a couple who mentored my wife in the faith who now that they have had children, have left the faith because they cant imagine God sending his children to hell, especially now that they have known the love that they have for their children. They have left the faith because they see “the faith” as ECT.

What do you all think?

The grammar is kind of squirrely (and probably represents an Aramaic original passed down to text). To give only one example, despite a very popular and widespread emendation, there was most likely no verb in the Greek at Mark 14:21, but the verb is supplied at Matt 26:24 (the texts of which are otherwise identical):

kalon (en) aut(i)o ei ouk egennethe ho anthropos ekeinos

kalon = good

(en) = was (found in GosMatt’s text)

aut(i)o = a prepositional third person pronoun, but in a weird case: “him” with a preposition implied. Most translations go with “for” as the equivalent English preposition, but to be blunt that’s kind of a guess, as exemplified by Green who in his literal translation took the standard “for” but in his super-literal translation he didn’t bother even trying to supply a preposition!–but placed the implied “it” there instead.

ei = if

ouk = not

egennethe = was born

ho anthropos = the person

ekeinos = this is an odd reflexive term in Greek; it’s built from a word for “there” but is used for emphasis in regard to the noun it modifies (sometimes with its own direct article, though not this time). We would say in English “that there one”! :mrgreen: Or “that selfsame one”.

The final clause certainly reads then: “if not was born that there person” or “that selfsame person” or or “that very same person”.

The implication from the emphasis at the end is that the speaker is talking about a person he just recently referenced. By context, this can only mean Jesus or Judas; and almost certainly means the person being talked about in the first clause.

So if the “him” in the first clause is Judas, the second clause’s person is also (almost certainly) Judas. If the “him” in the first clause is Jesus, the second clause’s person is (almost certainly) Jesus.

Now however we get to another related use of {ekeinos}: a tool for helping authors distinguish between men when talking about two of them (especially in relation to each other). Is there another nearby use of “that very man”? Yes there is, back in the previous sentence (both in GosMatt and GosMark; also GosLuke for what it is worth although GosLuke doesn’t have either of the two clauses of the ending sentence.) “But woe to that-very man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed.”

By grammatic implication, the two “that-very” men are the same man, namely the one who betrays the Son of Man. So was the Son of Man betraying the Son of Man? Matt 26:25 “And Judas, who was betraying Him…” starts the next sentence. (Also preceding context “One of you will betray Me”.)

This however opens back up the possibility that the “him” in the first clause of the final sentence does not refer to “that-very man”, since the term is definitely used for another purpose. It could of course be used for both purposes; but since “him” has already been used once in this statement and only for the Son of Man, then the parallels of usage would suggest that “him” refers to “Him” rather than to “that-very man”.

In the final analysis the grammar could be used either way: “him” in verse 24c (and its Markan parallel) could still be Jesus or Judas, although Judas is definitely “that-very man” at the end of 24c (and GosMark’s parallel).

Fortunately all this can be settled by cultural context much more easily–and, in passing, also lends weight to an interpretation of what we ought to be expecting from Christ in regard to Judas: the saying elsewhere (such as in Job) is a call for pity for that man of whom it would have been better had he not been born. And that fits the term being used for “wail” or “woe” in all three Synoptics here: it means “lament” in pity.

That means the saying is in fact about Judas in both its clauses. But it isn’t a curse of hopelessness for Judas: it’s a cry for pity for Judas. Jesus instructs His other disciples (and us too by extension) to be sorrowing in pity for Judas; to be hopefully loving him even in our grief for him. (True, Peter at least doesn’t seem to be doing this later in Acts; but Peter messes up a few times in other regards in those same opening chapters regarding his ministry and has to be slapped up and down a bit. :wink: This could be one of those times as well. At least Matthew in his unique Gospel material works hard at soliciting pity for the traitor–maybe having lived his life as a traitor to Israel before his apostolic call, he was able to pity Judas more.)

This could have independent (if subtle) confirmation from GosJohn, too: theologians have long wondered why “be loving one another” was supposed to be a new commandment. This Easter while devotionally reading the material, I noticed for the first time that Jesus tends to say this in proximity to references to Judas and his coming betrayal!

Loving our greatest enemies is presented elsewhere by Christ (especially in the Synoptic preaching material) as being the greatest fulfillment of the Law to love our neighbor; in the form “you have heard it said, but I am saying to you”, Jesus is practically re-giving the commandment in a new scope. I think it makes sense for Him to be challenging (and requiring!) His disciples and apostles to be loving one another even when “one another” includes someone like Judas Iscariot.

By this indeed “men shall know you are My disciples: if you are loving one another.”

What faithful disciples of a teacher do not ideally love one another?! But, which teacher has ever gone so far as Christ in insisting on loving the worst traitors as He has loved us when we were still sinners?

No greater love is there than this, that a man will lay down his life for his friend, Jesus says. Yet Jesus also says that this is entirely normal among the nations, and that loving those who love us is of no special weight; and St. Paul agrees that for a good man someone may dare even to die. But “this is love” that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

And Jesus, at the moment of betrayal, still calls Judas: “Friend.”

Wow; is all I can say here…

Which post are you referring to?

What of these thoughts?

If life begins at conception, and if dying in the womb would have spared him some 20 or 30 plus wasted years, the anguish of knowing he betrayed the Savior, ending his life in suicide, and an unusually long time in Gehenna, yes!

But if he’s to be finally reconciled to God, and an eternity of happiness awaits him after that, it could never be truly said that it would have been better for him if he had never existed–And I still think the alternate reading of Matt. 26:24 makes more sense (from a universalist pov) than the standard translation (if your observations on the context of the final clause are correct.)

Jason’s. (I didn’t want to quote it, because it was so long).

Personally I’d need to see much more evidence for the idea (if I’m following Jason) that “better not to have existed” was a first-century stand-in for “to be pitted,” and that’s it. Does the phrase in Jeremiah (I think) and Job really establish this? I don’t see how.

Be that as it may, Universalists certainly have to avoid the conclusion that Jesus is referring to an objective state of affairs, i.e., it’s being objectively the case that Judas’s never-having-existed is better than his having-existed. UR posits the ultimate/objective value of existing over non-existing for all human beings regardless of any conceivable depth of sin and despair. It can never be true that to not exist is ultimately better than to exist.

How best to avoid this interpretation of Jesus’ words is the trick. It seems most plausible to me that Jesus is referring to an experience Judas will have and act upon (despairing of life and committing suicide) in response to his betrayal and not to some objective fact of the matter about Judas’s value as a human being that shall endure post-mortem.

Tom

I basically agree with Michael. Jesus did NOT say that Judas would have been better off if he had never existed. Rather, Jesus was saying that, since Judas wasted his entire earthly existence, it would have been better for Judas if Judas had died in his mother’s womb.

Thank you Geofry.

Given the standard translation, that’s the only way I could understand the verse (as a universalist.)

II don’t see how that’s even possible given UR (Geoffrey and Michael). How is it true given Judas’ life on earth that it would have been better for Judas had he died in his mother’s womb if it’s also true that Judas will one day be reconciled to God and experience a bliss that surpasses all his earthly grief, dispair and suffering? If you mean Judas will believe (falsely, given his eventual reconcilation to God) he would have been better off never having been born, then yes, that’s exactly what I’m arguing. Is that what you’re saying?

Tom

No, I;m saying he would have actually been better off if he had died in the womb.

Remember, my sister died in the womb.

I think she may have to learn, and grow, and experience some of what we experience here somehow, but I don’t think she’ll actually have to go thru hell before she gets to heaven (whereas, if anyone will, Judas will–and already did, to some degree, in his last hours on earth.)

My sister is therefore better off than Judas.

And it follows that Judas would have been better off if he (like my sister) had died in the wmmb.

Do you see how that’s possible Tom?

Doesn’t it say somewhere that God is “the Savior of all, especially those who believe”?

Doesn’t it say “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power”?

Doesn’t this imply that the shorter road to heaven is better (more especially blessed) than the long road thru hell?

Isn’t that what Geofrey and I are saying?

Where is your disagreement here Tom?

BTW: I think you’ll find that Gearge MacDonald agreed with Geofrey and me here (saying that the time that Judas spent here was all wast, leaving him not better, but worse.)

Michael: Do you see how that’s possible Tom?

Tom: Hi Michael,

I’m afraid I don’t see it as very plausible. I can’t see that by “to have never been born” Jesus consciously meant “to have been conceived and to die in the womb.” I think it commits an unwarranted and unnecessary anachronism to attribute to Jesus such an opinion on the unborn (we simply don’t know and can’t say what Jesus thought about the unborn). And Jesus was perfectly capable (and the gospel writers equally so) of saying “to have died in the womb.” But he doesn’t say that. True, the words “to have never been born” allow, strictly speaking, for the death of the unborn. After all, to be conceived and not born alive is by definition “to have never been born.” But I hardly think the phrase or context warrant such a reading. I rather think the simplest option is to understand “to have never been born” as “to have never existed at all…period.”

But let’s assume your understanding. Two things follow I think. First, surely every human being ever born qualifies. Though Judas may be an extreme example, if what you’re suggesting is Jesus’ meaning, then it becomes the case that it’s better for every person ever born to have died in the womb, for every person ever born sins, offends God, and distributes his/her share of suffering and evil. And surely to die in the womb and grow up in a post-mortem context (whatever its risks) is “better” than to live on into the certainty of sin and evil. So at its very best (it seems to me) your view proves too much.

Secondly, it’s simply not the case that JUDAS would be “better off” had he died in the womb and found faith in some post-mortem context than to find faith (as he now shall) on the other side of hell as the betrayer of Christ. No suffering or evil experienced this side of heaven is “comparable” to the glories that shall be revealed in us…and Judas. The grief and pain of his betrayal also shall not be comparable to his pleasure and joys. Judas will not spent the rest of eternity mourning the permanent loss of ecstasy and glory because of his sin, forever wishing he HAD died in the womb so that his experience of heaven might be more than it is. That’s to be less than redemed; less than healed. So your sister shall not be “better off” than Judas. All shall be redeemed. All gloried. All ‘incomparably’ joyful and fulfilled.

Michael: I think you’ll find that George MacDonald agreed with Geofrey and me here (saying that the time that Judas spent here was all waste, leaving him not better, but worse).

Tom: I don’t disagree, but that’s not to agree with your take on Jesus’ declaration here. Judas ended his life far worse off than he otherwise might have ended it. That’s not the point. The point is that as universalists who believe all are redeemed and restored and that God shall be all in all, by definition we relativize all fallenness (eschatologically speaking). However Judas ended his life he shall not be the worse off when he’s restored and healed.

What do you believe people are restored TO, Michael? If all are restored and reach their fullest potential wherein all our natural capacities and dispositions are maximized as God designed them and for his glory, then who shall be the worse off for having taken the long road? Nobody.

That’s not to say taking the long road through hell ought not to be avoided. It ought to be avoided. But WHY? Because taking that road renders persons permanently and irrevocably worse off even in heaven? No. It’s to be avoided because God is infinitely deserving of our love and devotion and every second we fail to give it we suffer and God is not recognized as he deserved. UR (as I understand it) is just the belief that Judas’ act, however depraved, cannot forever rob God of all that God designed and deserves Judas to be. That’s the gospel, right? Judas shall one day be such that his having taken the long road shall no longer impair Judas’s full participation in the glories of redemption. And if THAT be the case, then it can never be the case, objectively speaking, that Judas would be better off to have died in the womb than to have taken the long road.

I could be wrong (I’m just thinking all this out loud), but the best bet (unless Jason is right and “to have never been born” is a first-century Aramaic euphemism for “to be pitied”) seems that Jesus isn’t making some metaphysical claim about the permanent loss of value of Judas in the afterlife or the enduring and objective preferability of his having never been born over his having lived the life he did live. He is rather predicting the sad conclusion that Judas himself shall reach about his own life. In the end Judas in fact DID conclude that his not living is preferable to his living.

Tom

I wonder if His Mother ever told Him how His (as yet unborn) cousin lept in his mother’s womb at the sound of her voice?

Whether she did or not, Jesus was fully God and fully man, and I think it’s reasonable to assume that He knew when human life begins.

He knew that Judas would betray Him, He knew that Peter would deny Him, He knew of His own pre-existence with the Father, but He knew nothing about when human life begins (and I’m not attributing any “oppinion” to Him, I’m assuming He could have known that non-birth doesn’t equal non-existence.)

Do you think every single human being ever born has to suffer to the extent Judas did in the hours before he took his own life, and then has to go thru a post-mortem hell of unknown duration, before they’re finally reconciled to God?

Do you believe my sister has (or had) to go through such a hell?

Is she no better off than Judas?

Is Peter (who repented of his denial of Christ, and died a martyr) no better off than Judas?

Then there’s no such thing as “a better resurrection.”

God isn’t “especially” the Savior of those who believe.

And those who have part in the first resurrection aren’t more “blessed” than those who go through the lake of fire.

If Judas is ultimately reconciled to God, surely part of his repentance and reconciliation will be to see that his life here on earth was a tragic wast (and that he would have been better off if he hadn’t been born in that time and place, only to betray his Savior.)

You’re comments here make no sense Tom.

I’m sorry I’m not making any sense to you.

Michael: If Judas is ultimately reconciled to God, surely part of his repentance and reconciliation will be to see that his life here on earth was a tragic wast (and that he would have been better off if he hadn’t been born in that time and place, only to betray his Savior).

Tom: Yes, he will see that his life “here on earth” ended in tragic waste. And surely to see it as a waste is to judge that there are better ways his life could have ended. I’m not denying any of this, Michael. I’m saying that this loss shall not permanently impair Judas’ capacities, once redemed, to fulfill all that God intends those capacities to be. Judas shall one day NOT be a waste in any sense of the word and his having been a waste shall neither injure nor decrease his function as a created being to reflect and enjoy God’s life.

Now, if THAT be the case, Michale, then in what sense will your sister remain forever better off than Judas? None that I can see. True, if we compare one segment of Judas’ life (say, the worst segment at the end) with what his life would likely be had he died in the womb, then yes, to have died in the womb would have been better than to end his life as he did. But again, the same could be said of every human being who has ever lived into adulthood IF you just compare each individual’s sin and wreckage (which put Christ on the Cross) with the relative ease and preferrability of finding faith after having died in the womb.

Michael: Do you think every single human being ever born has to suffer to the extent Judas did…?

Tom: No. But you’re sadly misunderstanding my point. The question isn’t whether or not others suffer as Judas did. The question is whehter others, like Judas, would have been better off to have died in the womb than to have lived to commit the sins they did. Don’t compare others with Judas. Compare the actual sinners we all become to the preferrability of having died in the womb and finding faith that way. Surely it’s true that we ALL would have been better off dying in the womb.

But we don’t die in the womb, and we’re all redemed and healed and perfected. So whatever crimes we commit in this life, whatever we waste, ultimate reconciliation restores and heals. THAT is the point, and that’s the problem with the view (yours and Geoffrey’s) that Judas is objectively and permanently worse off than he would have been had he died in the womb. You have a different vision of restored humanity than I do if you think Judas’s waste abides forever (i.e., permanently impairs him). But if you agree that Judas’s redemption means his restoration and healing, then you agree the day shall come when all our sins (Judas’s included) will be ‘incomparable’ to our bliss. It seems to me that you want to insist Judas’ waste IS comparable to his future bliss, so comparable in fact that his waste will forever lessen his well-being. He’ll be irrevocably worse off for having wasted his life even once he’s redemed.

My point is only this: Once you grant that all the effects of sin and evil shall be permanently obliterated by a glory so unspeakable that the sins which once rendered us worse of than we might have been will shall not be worth mentioning, then that fact becomes part of every fact of life, good and bad, including Judas, and as such *no waste can ever cheapen the objective worth and value of a human being *God values enough to redeme and heal. However “worse off” Judas was, it is either his own subjective perceptions that drive him to suicide (which has my vote) or a qualified comparison between states of differing values neither of which affect the fullness that shall be ours in Christ.

Tom

But his life here (however long it was) still will be.

No matter how happy he ends up (thanks only to God’s mercy, and his Savior’s sacrifice–and only after a time in gehenna–since he died in dispair, not believing in Christ as his Savior, and since God is “especially” only of those who believe), he would still have been better off if he had died in the womb.

Eternal happiness minus ne day gehenna is better then eternal happness plus one day in gehenna.

Yes.

Ciaphas, Hitler, Stalin, etc.

I don’t say those who die in the womb will skip all the growing pains of this life.

As we discussed elsewhere, that would seem to make this life meaningless–and they may somehow participate in the growing pains of life (either now, in a less blessed resurrection, or when all lives are reviewed at the Great White Throne–where some might be very grateful they weren’t born, and some very glad they were.)

But I do say that many who died in the womb will have a shorter and smoother road to heaven than Judas, Hitler, or Stalin.

Do you disagree?

I fail to see what you’re arguing about here Tom (unless you’re an ultra-universalist who believes there’s no hell at all?
That some (like Judas and Ciaphas) would have been better off if they hadn’t been born.

Michael: Eternal happiness minus no day gehenna is better then eternal happness plus one day in gehenna.

Tom: So you have one form of eternal happiness that is “better than” another form of eternal happiness. And what lifts one above the other and makes it better is the evil of our pasts which shares in determining our total happiness in heaven. The less sin you commit, the “better” your happiness in heaven. And however happy Judas shall be, he’ll be less happy than (or, his happiness will be “worse than”) he would have been had he not denied Christ.

This is a very different vision of creation restored than my own. But we can just disagree too! :sunglasses: Personally I don’t think sin shall permanently ravage God’s purposes for people.

Tom