Jesus' divinity from 3 synoptic texts


#211

Since Scripture is God breathed it’s impossible for the Bible to err. You either accept the Bible as Divine revelation or you throw out Christianity all together. You can’t have your cake and eat it too in this situation.


#212

steve7150 wrote:
This is not really the point for me. Of course it’s possible some things in the bible are wrong

Since Scripture is God breathed it’s impossible for the Bible to err. You either accept the Bible as Divine revelation or you throw out Christianity all together. You can’t have your cake and eat it too in this situation.
JamesAH81072

Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:07 pm

But humans wrote it and they can be mistaken and on occasion were. God didn’t dictate the words to them. So i do think it’s divine revelation but the writers could have gotten a geographic area wrong or the number of soldiers in an army.


#213

As was supposed? Where did that come from?

Onward and perhaps upward!

I take it as an allusion to the dreaded :unamused: VB, since the folks “supposed” Joseph to be the natural father.


#214

AS to errors in numbers, etc. - Actually I think it more than that. There appear to be 2 histories recorded in scripture - the history according to 1,2 Kings and 1,2 Samuel are similar, but the same history 1,2 Chronicles is much different - not only in point of view but with factual differences as well.

Please don’t impugn bad motives to me - I am far from wanting to tear down the bible or anything like that. I do want to have the tools to understand it for what it is so I can relate to it properly. To expect inerrancy is, I think, to think of the Bible incorrectly. Some OT writers are all about a God who is always angry, always on the point of the harshest judgment; other writers are more temperate and even reach the level of the Love of God. If we insist that each of them is inspired in the same way, we would end kind of schizophrenic.

I agree with Enns and others that the ARC of the OT is inspired - it is all leading up to Jesus. But for the Truth, the world had to wait for the FAther’s full expression, the man Jesus Christ.

AS to ‘as was supposed’ - I understood that to be something added to the gospel at a later date. The parentheses and all. I’ll check it out.


#215

There are two modern positions: Inerrant and infallible’. Let me give the Wiki definitions:

See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_infallibility


#216

Since Scripture is God breathed it’s impossible for the Bible to err.

BTW just for the record, the gospels don’t claim to be anything other then true. They don’t make claims of “God breathed” or even “inspired” only that they claim to be true. The fact that they don’t make claims of Godly inspiration or revelation and that the authors are mostly obscure IMO is in their favor.


#217

This scored-earth approach is rather unfortunate IMO in that the ‘take all or nothing’ aka ‘either or’ mindset pretty much says… unless you believe the bible as I dictate your faith is futile. None of us really have the right to judge another accordingly.

Here’s an interesting note from A.M. Hodgkin…

I do take the gospels as ‘history’ but that doesn’t negate the possibility of how that history was interpreted and thus subsequently reported, e.g., 4 different race-callers can be calling the same horse race and yet vary somewhat between themselves how they are calling the race, as in, how they are seeing it. And what I mean by history is in this sense…


#218

Um yes it does:

2 Timothy 3:16-Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,


#219

It could be that “the Scriptures” refers to the Hebrew Scriptures i.e., the OT. Check this out HERE.


#220

For those who believe in the virgin birth:
It is written that the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus before He began His ministry. Why would this be necessary?


#221

This question raises two other questions:

What is the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit. Which Calvinist site - Got Questions -attempts to answer at ttps://www.gotquestions.org/indwelling-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html
Did Jesus have the Indwelling Holy Spirit? Which is discussed in the Christian forum at christianforums.com/threads/did-jesus-have-the-indwelling-holy-spirit.7644655/

And one Protestant site author, now believes Jesus is not Got - because of this. See patheos.com/blogs/kermitzarleyblog/2016/11/need-holy-spirit/

But we also have the Calvinist CARM take on this at carm.org/did-jesus-become-divine-when-he-received-the-holy-spirit

We can find a Lutheran Reformed answer at evangelicalcatholicmissionalfaithful.blogspot.com/2008/11/did-jesus-need-holy-spirit-prior-to-his.html

And another interesting reformed answer at reformation21.org/blog/2017/07/why-did-jesus-need-the-holy-sp.php

You know, this story reminds me of saints and holy people. From the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Native American, Eastern and Sufi perspectives. If they can do all these healings and miracles, then how come they get sick, have to eat, die, etc.? Because they are walking in both the human world and part of the divine world.

And they do certain common things. So people can follow by example. Much like Jesus did, along with the people following him - both now and then.


#222

BTW just for the record, the gospels don’t claim to be anything other then true. They don’t make claims of “God breathed” or even “inspired” only that they claim to be true. The fact that they don’t make claims of Godly inspiration or revelation and that the authors are mostly obscure IMO is in their favor.

Um yes it does:

2 Timothy 3:16-Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,

But Paul likely was referring to the OT not the gospels for at the time of Paul’s writing the only official scripture was the OT. Also i was referring to what the gospels claim about themselves.


#223

Randy, curious… I may have asked this before, but do you ever have any formed opinions of your own? It seems to me you are a fence sitter just linking to other’s opinions. This is not intended as an attack. In many ways, it is very wise to sit back and listen to others. But there is something to be said for coming out with an opinion of your own, however formed it may have been by those influences.

On another note: It is an assumption that “God Breathed” in Timothy is referencing itself on the grounds that

  1. The Cannon had not been formed yet. In fact, even 80% of the cannon wasn’t formed until the END of the 2nd Century. Nearly 150 years AFTER Christ had walked the earth.

  2. It would be a bit presumptions to assume that a sermon/letter written to a group of people would have been assumed to be scripture. Authoritative? Certainly, but scripture? No, I doubt it.

The “Bible” isn’t one book. It never was and it never will be. Neither does it self claim to the “Word of God”. Neither does it mandate that each person swear an oath to it.

The Bible is a way for people to stop something that is so difficult for many, namely to stop thinking for yourself. It offers many a scapegoat to never ponder the difficult truths. Speaking for myself here, it is much harder to think for yourself and live by faith than it is to just believe some creed. Like “What do you think of so and so” and many like to say “Well, the Bible says this”… It basically shut downs critical thinking and devolves into “I don’t are if it says God wanted them to commit genocide, he must have had a good reason” No, he didn’t have a good reason, because he didn’t command it. Well, my opinion. :slight_smile:


#224

The Bible is a way for people to stop something that is so difficult for many, namely to stop thinking for yourself. It offers many a scapegoat to never ponder the difficult truths. Speaking for myself here, it is much harder to think for yourself and live by faith than it is to just believe some creed. Like “What do you think of so and so” and many like to say “Well, the Bible says this”… It basically shut downs critical thinking and devolves into “I don’t are if it says God wanted them to commit genocide, he must have had a good reason” No, he didn’t have a good reason, because he didn’t command it. Well, my opinion. :slight_smile:
Gabe Grinstead

Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:55 pm

Well i’ve had the opposite experience with the bible, for me it does inspire critical thinking and is an amazing book or books. I don’t find bible study reduced to believing some creed at all, just the opposite.


#225

I’ll take your word for it. But mainly my point was that once you anchor yourself to a set of rules (Bible) you no longer have to think what is right or wrong, because you have aligned it with what the Bible says. Slavery, for example, is considered vile today, but the Bible seems to think it is just fine. You can argue different times, but all I am saying is that you are deviating from it should you condemn it. I guess in the spirit of “roll your own theology” that is just what people do, pick and chose. Some limit the picking and choosing to parts of the Bible. Some say, no, all literature is ripe for the picking and choosing.I guess I now subscribe to the latter. I can judge for myself what is right and wrong, and I might get it wrong sometimes, but I’d rather have it that way that support genocidal view of God, or one who is fine with slavery and women being silent in church, and just being the property of man. I think we have outgrown most of the Bible a a society, at least I hope we have.


#226

Gabe, I hear you. Many today still believe that God commanded animal sacrifices. No He didn’t. Try this today and you would be considered a member of a devil worshiping cult. Besides that, you would probably be arrested for animal cruelty, and rightly so. If you read the prophets, they all say that God despised such sacrifices. He even hated their festivals, and the smell of burning incense nauseated Him. But these people would not listen. If you notice what the people of Israel were doing at the time, they were taking what was said in the Bible according to it’s literal sense and making it law. I would even say that some of what was in the Levitical law was not from God.
Cleaning your vessels means purifying the mind and heart, not dunking your pots and utensils in the mikvah.
Being washed clean with water means being washed by the Spirit and the word. Again, it does not mean dunking yourself in the mikvah.
Circumcision means humbling the heart not cutting the male organ.
The list goes on.
The leaders of Israel had no spiritual sense. They were blind leading the blind, and this is why we are warned about interpreters.


#227

Hello LLC.

Could I contradict you a little and give an example of God requiring an animal sacrifice - the passover lamb.
(This quote below is KJV except with italics replaced with ordinary text.)

Exo:012:001 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of
Egypt saying,

Exo:012:002 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it
shall be the first month of the year to you.

Exo:012:003 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In
the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every
man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a
lamb for an house:

Exo:012:004 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him
and his neighbour next unto his house take it according
to the number of the souls; every man according to his
eating shall make your count for the lamb.

Exo:012:005 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first
year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the
goats:

Exo:012:006 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the
same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of
Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Exo:012:007 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the
two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses,
wherein they shall eat it.

Exo:012:008 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with
fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they
shall eat it.

Since Jesus’ sacrifice, animal sacrifices are not required. The passover lamb looked forward to Jesus’ sacrifice of himself.
I think that God hated sacrifices that were offered when people were disobedient to him. I agree with most of the rest
of what you said.

Best wishes,
Nick Hawthorn


#228

Gabe. I classify myself in my signature, as an Eastern Anglo-Catholic. Which means I follow an “established” theologically position. I would answer you first - and foremost - as an Eastern Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic would answer. And secondly - if needed - as a Catholic would answer. And thirdly, as one of the Church fathers would answer.

I don’t have either an RYO (AKA Roll Your Own) or PAC (AKA Pick and Choose) theology. Which this makes me, a dull and boring person. Except for my academic inclinations and my Holy Fool tradition imitations. :wink:

I grew up in the Lutheran grade school system. And I am pretty familiar, at the end of grade school - with the entire Bible. And could tell you how a Missouri Synod Lutheran - would see things. Since then, I have expanded into Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic, Anglican and silent Quaker theology.

If I don’t know something. And there isn’t a theological answer, from the above traditions - I contemplate. Which is what I’ve learned - in silent Quakerism. These days, it’s following in the Franciscan tradition and spirit, of Roman Catholic priest Richard Rohr. And it follows one, of two simple methods:

The Golden Key method of Fox. Which is contemplation, in the spirit of Emmet Fox and Mary Baker Eddy
The Buddhist silent traditions of Mindfulness and Zen

In other words, I also react to pain and suffering. Either by working on changing the circumstances (AKA Joel Osteen motivational methods and scientific prayer of Emmet Fox)…or change my reaction to it (AKA Mindfulness and Zen).


#229

Slavery, for example, is considered vile today, but the Bible seems to think it is just fine.

Well i’m sure you heard it but the slavery the bible said was just fine was in a very different culture and slavery was often a method of paying debts back.
As far as outgrown it as a society, i don’t see the bible as something to outgrow. I recognize there are parts that are hard to reconcile with Jesus description of God but for now i’m content with not having explanations for everything.


#230

Just as a clarification - the terms ‘ryo’ or ‘pick and choose’ - as I use them, means:

  • to study hard,
    -listen to both sides,
    -pray for wisdom and
    -THEN DO WHAT EACH OF YOU DOES - AND SO DO I - ie…, make a prayerful and responsible decision based on your own best judgment.
    It is not blindly following a PRE-PACKAGED set of rules that some ELSE has chosen as a way for you to live your life without taking personal responsibility.

I think it may be time to get over the illusion that a responsible and reflective faith is necessarily of less integrity than a blind obedience to a way someone else has cobbled together, and take responsibility for our choices, more so - recognize that they are choices and we EACH CHOOSE WHAT TO BELIEVE - I.E., WE ROLL OUR OWN.

$.02

edit:
William Ellery Channing (1780-1842), “On Creeds,” Works, Vol. I (London: Chapman, Brothers, 1844), pp. 280-285 (at 281):
I cannot but look on human creeds with feelings approaching contempt. When I bring them into contrast with the New Testament, into what insignificance do they sink! What are they? Skeletons, freezing abstractions, metaphysical expressions of unintelligible dogmas; and these I am to regard as the expositions of the fresh, living, infinite truth which came from Jesus! I might with equal propriety be required to hear and receive the lispings of infancy as the expressions of wisdom. Creeds are to the Scriptures, what rushlights are to the sun. The creed-maker defines Jesus in half-a-dozen lines, perhaps in metaphysical terms, and calls me to assent to this account of my Saviour. I learn less of Christ by this process, than I should learn of the sun, by being told that this glorious luminary is a circle about a foot in diameter.