Mitchell seems to think not inheriting the kingdom is something people experience in this life, not postmortem. What are your thoughts on what he wrote here?
All aspects of our God are in the present continuous tense of “be being”. What you are tomorrow is what you are now becoming. The "especially of His love & grace are in a unique dimension of leading a broken race home to the One who has cherished restoring the all into union with Himself. In My Father’s House are many dwelling places (places of abode), none of which are in the same dimension, but centered in the Author & Finisher.
Are Christians “sons of disobedience”? Will they face the “wrath of God” on the day of judgement?
Eph.5: 3 But let sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness not even be named among you, as also is proper to saints, 4 and filthiness, and foolish talking, or crude joking, which are not fitting, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For this you know, realizing that any fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous man, who is an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light—
Rom.2: 5 But because of your hardness and unrepentant heart, you are treasuring up to yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God, 6 who “will give to each according to his works,”a 7 to those who indeed with endurance in good work are seeking glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those of self-interest and disobeying the truth, but being persuaded about unrighteousness, wrath and anger;
16 on that day when God will judge the secrets of men according to my gospel, by Christ Jesus.
Eph.2: 1 And you, being dead in your trespasses and sins— 2 in which once you walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom we all also once lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of its thoughts; and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.
1 Cor.6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Gal. 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I don’t know. What’s your answer? All I know is I’ve never met a perfect Christian.
The Wrath Of God
What does the koine katartízō from katá means?
To render i.e to fit, sound, complete.
To mend (what has been broken or rent) to repair.
To repair what has been broken or rent.
To fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust.
To fit or frame for one’s self.
To prepare for one’s self.
To strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be.
To make one what he aught to be
Could it be possible the hilasmos of the holos will actually make the broken wrecks of Adam1 what they aught to be?
Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?
What do the Scriptures that were posted tell you?
Does this verse look like “sons of disobedience” will be saved:
Heb.5:9 and having been perfected, He became the author of aionion salvation to all those obeying Him
Ya, you seem to be somewhat disillusioned with that idea.
And maybe you can start to pony up and say why it isn’t so…
It gets tiresome interacting with you since you rarely answer questions.
I think inheriting the kingdom concerns believers, it is not about salvation but rather a reward. The believers are said to reign with Christ, bad believers who lived ungodly lifes will be saved but not reign with Christ, maybe the verse refers to them where it says they are saved, yet by fire.
Dear Sven: In my Father’s house are many dwelling places/ places of abode. There are various dimensions of union & communion with Him. One may be a disciple, but of the 12 there were three who had a unique relationship with the Christ, and of the three there was John who leaned upon the bosom of the Master.
Those who make their way thru great distress are the overcomers. They know the working of being hurt over & over & over again until there is nothing left to hurt. These are they who are not “hurt” by the 2nd death. There is nothing left to hurt! What a journey this is!
What does “reign with Christ” mean? I realize you’re probably futurists (while I’m a preterist), so I need clarification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
How does that idea harmonize with the Scriptures:
Heb.5:9 and having been perfected, He became the author of eonian salvation to all those obeying Him
Jn.3:36 The one believing in the Son has eonian life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.
1 John 2:3 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
Mt.7: 21 Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. 22 Many will say to Me in that the day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness.’
Titus 3: 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, being deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared, 5 He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by that grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of life eonian.
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4). “…God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).
“…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
“If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.” (1 Corinthians 16:22).
“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15).
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eonian life abiding in him. (1 Jn.3:15)
“And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:38).
”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).
“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Romans 2:8-11).
”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).
“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
“…but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“…And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, aionion life.” (Romans 6:22).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.
1 John 3: 7 Little children,b let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God was revealed, so that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.
“if they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them” (2 Peter 2:20-21).
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. (Prov.28:13)
The Bible somewhere says that the believers will judge the Angels e.g.
@ Origen, it’s a difficult topic, one should not mix up the gospels with what Paul taught, personally I’m not convinced that Christians can life as they want and still be saved but it is more or less commonly taught, not only among universalists.
Sven, that would practically be Antinomianism which is generally rejected by Christianity or the vast majority of church denominations, as well as by cults such as JW’s.
Compare “Easy Believism”, “Cheap Grace”, “Free Grace” & “Lordship Salvation”:
Maybe the Parable of the Talents suggest God will give more responsibility and authority to those who diligently follow what God wants?
I think you’re onto something there Steve - I’m not sure the Parable directly applies - more ‘suggests’ as you pointed out - but the principle that the character we develop in this life is the one we carry to the next life does apply here, imo.
Really, I would be interested in if that is a gut feeling or if you have some outside info (biblical or not) that you draw upon to come to that conclusion, this subject does interest me.
There have been many influences that I’ve encountered since leaving calvinism that have brought me to the belief you are asking about. In a few sentences: I knew in my heart that I needed a new ‘model’ of understanding Christianity; what I’d been taught and what I accepted, uncritically, was going to ruin me.
GMac opened the door. But for the full model I needed two other teachers: St.Thomas Aquinas and Wm. Ellery Channing
From Aquinas, I got this: (don’t worry, this won’t be a long post!)
"“What the scriptures teach is that man failed the gardening task and ruined God’s the Father’s good creation, but that God graciously came, as a friend and cooperator, to help him salvage and recreate. In choosing that way to help man with his original goal God gave man’s life a new goal - that of fellowship with God himself as friend. The journey of this life is no longer simply a journey to the fulfilment of man’s nature, for that journey has been taken up into a journey into the presence of God HImself, into the good and happy state which God himself is.
This is Thomas’s preferred way of describing the relationship between what later commentators called man’s natural and supernatural ends…He consistently talks of God, known to man’s learning as the author of nature, becoming through God’s teaching the object of his happiness . The word translated ‘happiness’ has more the sense of ‘happy state’ or ‘blessed state’, meaning a state which has blessedly happened or turned out well - a state of goodhap rather than mishap. It corresponds to the Aristotelian word ‘eudaimonia’, which some modern scholars translate as ‘flourishing’. When Thomas uses happiness as a name for God himself he is thinking of God as fulfilled life; and this explains why he talks of happiness as being accompanied by delight, rather than as consisting in it.
God has destined us for a goal beyond the grasp of reason.” end quote
So that is the Model I have chosen; I feel that it represents scripture faithfully, and explains the Big Picture, against which I measure all smaller pictures, either to correct them, or to incorporate them.
As for Channing - he came from a time that understood Morality as the fresh breeze from the land of Righteousness; not just a Morality meant to save us from one another and from ourselves but as well, more importantly, as the means to enable us to imitate our Father - morality in other words that points to Freedom, Growth, Love, Wisdom, to 'Wide open skies, broad Sunlight and Looking Far and Wide" - a generous, flourishing, enlightened human experience that ‘grows’ us now and **
**; ever-increasing mind and spirit, love and wisdom, toward Christ and mankind, including I think animals and material creation.
There’s a lot more to it, but those are the basics, at least for me; I cannot imagine a more encouraging Model, nor one more suited to provoke us to faithfulness, to striving upward, to enlarging our abilities, to growing our Love and Admiration for God, and fellowship with others.
I truly hate to stop at this point, but by now I’ve probably bored everyone stiff