One more thing Catherine. Just the fact that you are here and are even willing to see the possibilility of something else says SO much. You have an open heart, a pliable heart. I think God loves that kind of attitude…An attutude that doesn’t limit Him. Amen!
I’m first and foremost a metaphysician, so the logical implications of the Trinity are what first convinced me God would always be acting toward saving all sinners from sin. If God revealed that some (or even many) sinners would always refuse to repent of their sins, I couldn’t be happy about that of course, and I would be very surprised (from a metaphysical perspective) that the omnicompetent God was somehow unable to ever bring them to repentance–but that isn’t the same as God ever giving up acting toward that goal (much less never starting for some sinners in the first place.)
At the time I expected that this would be the resolution between the implications of trinitarian theology and what, at the time, I believed the scriptures were teaching: it fitted scriptural testimony about God’s scope and persistence in salvation (coming from the Southern Baptist Convention I heard plenty of argument both ways and though they both had good points both metaphysically and scripturally, including against each other); it didn’t require me to believe against the scriptures that sinners sulkily preferred to be in hell (a popular Arm concept, even more popular today); and it kept the general testimony of the scriptures that hell involved active punishment by God (which many Arms, and many more Arms today, tended to deny). Scriptures talking about what seemed to be annihilation, I figured could still be reckoned in as sinners being removed out of the normal field of existence (but still allowing for post-mortem evangelization by the blessed up to a point–after that only God would evangelize the people He omnisciently knew would never agree to repent.)
But on the other hand, if on further study I found sufficient evidence indicating God revealing He would eventually succeed, then obviously that would fit in even better! 
But I could go either way.
I’m also a novelist who loves story analysis; and being a geek I’m very picky about plot holes and working on mysteries to figure out what an author is hinting at in order to bring a story together (and whether he’s being competent about it). So after several years of studying the scriptures some more, two more things that weigh the most heavily to me became apparent:
1.) There were scriptures, and quite a few of them, indicating a revelation that God would eventually succeed in bringing everyone back into loyalty to Him (even the rebel angels, which surprised me as I figured some of them at least would never repent);
2.) There were a number of scriptures which I now saw warning me that if I insisted on believing God could or would not save sinners from sin, I myself might be in line for punishment (depending on my attitude about it. I am a very zorchy person by nature. 
) Even more weighty, those warnings tended to come in context of scriptures I had previously regarded as some of the strongest testimony against universal salvation!
I’m still on occasion discovering new things along each of those lines.
I should also add (and this will be somewhat simpler): it comes down to trust in God for salvation from sin. Do we trust God to save us from our sins, or not?
Arminianistic and Calvinistic schools of Christian thought (whether Protestant or Catholic) both lean heavily and (I would say) rightly on this notion of trust in God for salvation.
And anyone who has ever converted from one to the other school of thought will know by experience how strongly important the grounding of this trust is.
Any Arm who used to be Calv, will know from experience, and will testify, that they became (and remain) Arminian because they found they could trust God more about salvation this way. They had had problems in Calvinism because they couldn’t trust God really intended to save them–or perhaps they found they could trust God on that for themselves, but still wanted to trust God more about salvation because they love other people, and the truncated Calvinistic scope of God’s salvation just wasn’t able to ground that trust enough for them. “For God so loved the world” really does mean ‘them’, too! They don’t have to guess, they can be sure that this or that person or persons (even themselves, if they’re having trouble with that) is loved by God with saving love. They find more of God’s love and God’s salvation believed and testified in Arminianism than in Calvinism (or the non-Protestant versions thereof).
But it goes the other way, too.
Any Calv who used to be Arm, will know from experience, and will testify, that they became (and remain) Calvinistic because they found they could trust God more about salvation this way. They had had problems in Arminianism because they couldn’t trust God really would keep on loving them, or really would succeed in saving them (and maybe they moved between the two basic branches of Arminianism on this first)–or perhaps they found they could trust God on that for themselves, but still wanted to trust God more about salvation because they love other people, and the truncated Arminianistic persistence of God’s salvation just wasn’t able to ground that trust enough for them. “Whosoever believes shall not perish” really does mean ‘them’, too! They don’t have to guess, they can be sure that this or that person or persons (even themselves, if they’re having touble with that) is loved by God with victorious salvation. They find more of God’s love and God’s salvation believed and testified in Calvinism than in Arminianism (or the non-Protestant versions thereof).
I could, and still can, see the real value both ways; and I saw (and still see) people seriously and reverently and gratefully (and properly!) moving from one to the other both ways; and I saw (and still see) people within each school of thought doing their best to appropriate the strength of assurance from the other school of thought within the constraints of their own school of thought.
But the chief reason why the problem exists at all is because both sides believe in an ultimate hopelessness of salvation from sin.
For me, it was studying scripture that filled me with faith that Jesus does not fail to save anyone. In short, in an effort to refute UR I started studying the classic UR passages (Rom.5.18, Col.1.20, Rev.5.18, Phil.2:10-11, etc.) As I studied them in their literary context, I couldn’t find anything from their individual literary contexts that would indicate that “all” does not mean “all”, thus affirming UR. So I turned to studying what scripture says concerning Hell, assuming such would disprove UR. I assumed that the doctrine of Hell was “rock-solid”, but the more I studied what scripture actually says concerning the punishment of sin, the more I found the doctrine of Hell to be like muddy hardened sand that crumbles under the least little pressure. And I started to see that some passages warn of remedial punishment.
In my subconscious, the passages that affirm UR solidified and the passages that I thought warned of Hell kept getting weaker, until one day I subconsciously believed UR. I would not admit that I believed UR for several months though, even admitting it to myself. And one Sunday morning during worship the Lord spoke to me and said, “Stop Lying!” And I understood that I was 1) to stop lying to myself. I no longer was just studying UR, but I had come to believe it. And 2) I was to stop lying to others saying that I was just studying UR/Hell and finding… Instead, I was to openly confess (right or wrong) that I had come to believe in UR.
I didn’t want to believe UR because 1) I knew it would cause me many trials in several relationships. 2) it might cost me my job in the ministry I work in. 3) it would put me on the “fringes” of Christianity. And 4) many people would loose respect for me.
Well, what I feared came upon me. Coming to have faith in Jesus not only for my salvation but for the salvation of others too has cost me terribly and is causing me great grief in many broken relationships, family and long-term friends. This saddens me terribly. I’ve been excluded from fellowship, denounced publicly, asked to resign from a ministry I helped to found, and, well, the list goes on and on. Even so, the more I study scripture, the more I pray, the more I fast, the more I study with others, the more trials I face because of my faith in Christ, the more firmly I believe the Jesus really is the Savior of All, especially we who believe, in deed and reality not in some bogus title only! I believe that love does not fail, that Jesus does not fail, but accomplishes all that He set out to do - the reconciliation of all creation!
Thank you so much Sass, Jason and Sherman for taking the time to come back to me.
Sass- I worry that I’m too ‘open’ and question things too much. When I raise questions with non UR believers, they very often reply with ‘you have to trust God when you don’t understand things like eternal conscious torment or why God can’t or won’t save ALL people’ and try as I might, I can’t.
Jason- I was surprised you cite the trinity as the catalyst to accepting UR for you- I have always struggled with the trinity and ‘feel’ uncomfortable with it so I don’t quite understand where you’re coming from there. Sorry. I kind of followed the rest of what you said. (I think 
).
Sherman- I respect your honesty and faith in standing for what you believe in even though it’s meant hardships and trials.
I struggle to believe that God is saving me, nevermind anyone else, and so maybe this is my biggest obstacle to believing UR. ‘I’ don’t feel saved (or loved) and so ‘if’ I’m not saved then it follows that others aren’t either??? God doesn’t seem to grant me assurance of my salvation (and that He loves me) and so whilst that is the case I’m not sure about ANYTHING even God. I’ve really been struggling with my faith on and off all my adult life and although I thought I was doing much better lately, I yet again feel empty of feelings for God. I don’t exactly doubt God is there but I don’t ‘feel the love’ as such. I don’t sense He is ok with me and that all will be well. I don’t know who God is really- does He really torment people forever or allow them to torment themselves forever? (like Sass I still worry E.C.T might be true). I really don’t know what to believe…
Catherine, I really appreciate your openness. For me, meditating on scriptures that speak of the love, grace, and mercy of God helps me to feel the love of God. And it is also very helpful to hear messages on such from grace-filled speakers. So being a part of a fellowship that focuses on grace and love is key. And then of course, it’s very helpful to experience such love in various relationships with others. It’s possible that this is the most powerful for most people, key loving relationships! Being in loving relationships is how many people experience the love of God. In fact, most people who come to faith in Christ not as a child do so through key relationships, through experiencing the love of God through others.
And let me assure you sis, you are loved! You are the apple of God’s eye! You are the sheep that He forsook all to find. You are that treasure hidden in a field, whom the owner sold all he had to buy. You are the lost coin that the woman turned her house upside-down to find. You are loved. God created you in his/her own image, created you to be loved and love!
That’s okay. I never blame anyone for struggling with the Trinity or not feeling comfortable with it. 
Well, first {hug!}
Second: this is actually a pretty big point at stake (especially back in patristic times) as to whether orthodox trinitarian theism is true or not. Even if I don’t happen to emotionally feel loved by God at a particular time, I can still be absolutely sure God is essentially love, and so must certainly love me, if the Trinity is true, and won’t ever stop loving me–even if He’s also angry at me sometimes because of my sins. God might still love me if the Trinity is not true and some other theism is true instead, but He certainly does if the Trinity is true.
Theologians have gotten away from that for many centuries, although some like Lewis and Moltmann have tried to lead people back to it. Anyway.
It may not be very useful to you right now, but because I believe the Trinity to be true, I am consequently convinced that God certainly loves you and has acted and is acting and will act to save you from your sins to the uttermost completion. (People who don’t believe in the Trinity may also be convinced for other reasons that God certainly loves you. I’m only talking about where I’m standing. Whether either of us theists have sufficient ground to be convinced, and what those grounds are or are not, is a technical question. 
)
I think George MacDonald (possibly following earlier Christians–he was almost as widely read as Lewis) was who said that if you happen not to feel loved by God at the moment, the worst thing you can do is try to manufacture feelings about being loved by God or about loving God or feelings of assurance about anything. (Lewis, following MacD, said similar things.)
The best thing to do is to look around for someone to love and then go love them. Even if it’s only a little because you don’t presently have enough energy to do any more. I guess the next best thing would be to find some love to receive, even if it’s only a little.
Either you’re loving (or being loved) more than God can love, or God can love even more than you’re loving (or being loved). That might help clear your feelings about being loved by God in comparison to how you’re loving (or being loved). Or, maybe it won’t, yet.
But the main thing is to love. Go help fulfill fair-togetherness with someone, or even with something. You might come to learn you’re not doing it quite right, but it’s a step in the only direction worth being called “right”. 
(Also, I kind of recommend finding GMaC’s sermons to read, if you haven’t done so already; they’re freely available on the net in several places, and they help clear my mind immensely when I’m feeling depressed. )
Catherine,
You’re a Christian so in a way this doesn’t apply to you–but in some other ways it seems like it might, too.
youtube.com/watch?v=Zca4NAD1 … ature=plcp
That’s my closing statement from the debate I had with TFan last October. I thought it was more important to make an evangelical appeal to any unbelievers who might be listening (my most beloved among them, I hope, although I have no way of knowing…), but it may be helpful for any Christians just not feeling very loved by God at the moment.
(Me being me , I worked in a quick apologetic in favor of Christian universalism, too–different from the case I had built previously in the debate, but still based both on scriptural testimony and on metaphysical reasoning–although I did my best to present why such arguments are relevant to the question of God’s scope and persistence of love. It’s only about 6:30, so don’t panic.)
Sherman and Jason- I agree with you both when you mention loving others ie loving and being loved and seeing God’s love through others’ love. I am dearly loved by my family and dearly love them and so I am very blessed to have so much love in my life. I would say that I can sense God is loving but I still don’t sense it personally towards me. 
The idea that you can ‘blow it’ with God is firmly entrenched in my mind and heart (many will seek but few are chosen- and the verses about the man chucked out of the wedding feast for not wearing the right clothes!!). I know God can break through my doubts and confusions and so I don’t understand why He doesn’t. I don’t think He will now. This has been going on for 30 years.
Jason, I listened to the Youtube link. Very interesting! You sound like a man who I enjoyed listening to a couple of years ago, who did quite a few UR videos. (I think it was sozo productions?? Can’t remember now). I thought you’d sound like Lloyd Grossman 
Lol.
Let’s say I DO believe the trinity (I assume you mean 3 distinct persons in one God?). What is it about the trinity that convinces you ALL Adam’s offspring will be reconciled to God (all creation I should say)?
Catherine, I understand your struggle. For me, I had to go through each of the passages concerning judgment and the punishment of sin and restudy them, seeking to understand what they said and get past what I had been taught they said. Tradition often reads Hell into such passages when it’s simply not there. For example, the wedding feast passage was meant to teach, I believe, that the present reality of the kingdom of God is only experienced by those willing to be clothed in the gift of grace and righteousness, not in their own merits. Those who respond to God on their own merits miss out and suffer accordingly. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” doesn’t necessarily speak of punishment in the afterlife, but of the realization of all the good one misses out on when one doesn’t live in grace, whether that realization comes in this life or the life to come. I know I’ve experienced much “weeping and gnashing of teeth” when I’ve experienced the judgment of God.
Of course, this is a very different interpretation of this passage than what you’ve heard all of your life. It is very difficult to not read ECT into passages where we’ve been taught since childhood that these passages and phrases affirm ECT. It takes repentance, a rethinking, a renewing of the mind, something I’m certainly still working on for myself!
It means punishment and correction both. As the New Testament Greek Lexicon states:
So, while people will be punished as they pay for their sins, they will be being corrected at the same time. It is my belief that after they have paid the price for their sins and recieve God’s correction, they will be purified in the fires and released as they are brought up to heaven. I see it as a real option anyway. For the Bible tells us that:
Moreover, what is one of God’s ultimate plans and purposes? Is it not the salvation of the world? God desires all to be saved:
And no purpose of His can be thwarted:
Since God desires all to be saved and no purpose of His can be thwarted then it follows that all will be saved. In this life or the next. For the fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back until He accomplishes the intent of His heart.
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Well said!!
In classical Greek it means correction (as opposed to ‘timoria’), however I have read articles, that in Koine Greek it lost this meaning, and simply meant punishment, punishment - not torment - though without the implication of remedial punishment as it had in classical Greek
If we argument that in Koine ‘aionios’ did not mean eternal, we must accept that ‘kolasis’ also had another meaning than in classical Greek, it still is a weaker term than ‘timoria’, also found in the NT, or other terms.
One should check all occurances of kolasis in the NT to determine if its used in a remedial sense, which I think it actually is.
Another instance is 1John 4:17,18; were the context implies paternal chastisement
A form of kolasis is also found in 2Peter 2:9, from a Universalist point of view, chastisement would perfectly fit
Interestingly ‘timoria’ is used in Acts 22:5 and 26:11 where the context rather implies a harsh punishment
concordances.org/greek/2851.htm
what you think, given Matthew 25:46, 1John 4:17,18 and 2Peter 2:9 opposed to Acts 22:5 and 26:11
would you say the classical meaning is preserved in the NT?
Acts 22:4,5 Green’s Literal
I persecuted this Way as far as death, binding and delivering up both men and women to prisons, as also the high priest and all the elderhood witnesses to me. And receiving letters from them to the brothers, I traveled into Damascus even to lead those to Jerusalem being bound there, in order that they might be punished [timoria].
Acts 26:10,11
which I also did in Jerusalem, I also shut up many of the saints in prisons, receiving authority from the chief priests; and they being put to death, I cast a vote. And often punishing [timoria] them through all the synagogues, I compelled them to blaspheme. And being exceedingly furious against them, I even persecuted as far as the outside cities.
it implies a retributive, non remedial punishment in both verses, timoria is used
Catherine I’m right where you are at. I too have abandoned Universal Reconciliation and to be honest it has been the most freeing and life-giving experience for me. Yes I still hope for all to be saved, but it is simply a hope. The center of my focus now is no longer on humanity and trying to justify them before God, but instead knowing and experiencing God Himself. Would I trade all of humanity for Jesus? In a word, yes. Is it because I do not love people? Of course I do! I try to love them as much as I used to love myself. But Jesus was not kidding when He said,
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
I wished for UR to be true so bad, yet fear and cowardice haunted every step I took. I felt trapped by the words I read, I could not escape the so-called “Blessed Hope”, I forgot about Jesus, about how much I simply wanted Him. To focus on Hell is not right, but neither is it right to focus on UR. We put our focus on mankind to much in either case, however, we are supposed to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. As I read the Scriptures now I see how much I had limited my understanding of God’s revelation by believing in UR, there is so much more in the word, but this one belief will make you worried about every single passage you read and you will be unable to see the beauty of truth. To see the word of God through a UR lens eventually leads to confusion and fear.
Now that I am free, I feel as if I was taken captive by the philosophy which Paul sternly warned us about. Even as I write the spirit within me bears witness to the light which dwells there. Now I am able to proclaim the gospel without having to try and fit it into my presuppositions, I accept what the Spirit of Christ says and I will never apologize for it. Praise God if all are saved, and praise God if they are not! It is all about Jesus, don’t you see? His truth is what sets us free, we can proclaim judgment and love, mercy and wrath, grace and truth. We are not bound to a mental assent of dead-doctrines, but instead we are guided by the Spirit of truth into all truth.
You will ask me how I can defend scripturally what I say, my simple reply is this: The soulish person does not understand the things of the Spirit for they are foolishness to him. Do not think I am saying you do not understand ECT as if it were a spiritual truth, I am not defending that at all here, my mind leans more toward annihilation. However, my spirit is free to believe whatever He wishes to reveal to me, I am not chained to any opinion or doctrine, but I am free to know the truth. The entirety of Your word is truth (Psalm 119:160).
Universal reconciliation was on my mind every waking moment, I researched it, argued it, dissected it, grew sick over it, was afraid of it not being true, it wasted my life slowly. And in the end, absolutely nothing should take our eyes off of Jesus Christ, plain and simple. Anything that consumes our energy and focus other than Christ, is an idol and one which will lead us as far away from the truth as possible. Jesus must be the center, that is Christianity 101. I have seen it with many who have adopted UR, it consumes their thinking, most status updates on Facebook are about UR, almost every video they like on YouTube, verses they post etc. It is unhealthy. Conversely it is wrong for people to focus solely on hell, either focus will hurt our relationship with God.
Catherine do not be afraid of mankind’s doctrines and ideas, let the Spirit of God teach you, let Him breath life into the Scriptures. He will show you the truth in this matter. I am still not fully sure what the judgment is out of the big 3 (ECT, UR, AN). I mainly take my view from John 3. Is it correction or punishment in Matthew 25? I do not know, but what I do know is this: That the judge of all the earth will do what is right. My job is simply to proclaim His unending love, His righteousness, His hatred toward sin and those who love it, His grace and truth, and to teach people the gospel of the Kingdom.
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Awakeninggalatheia, I’m glad that your focus has turned to Jesus instead of being consumed with any doctrine. And that’s a good thing. I was raised in a church that was very exclusive. If you didn’t believe like we did we did not recognize you as a brother in Christ, questioning your salvation. Doctrine was central to our relationship with God and with one another, especially a few doctrines that we felt were key to salvation. And then, well, I encountered the Lord and it shook one of my primary doctrines. I came to a place where I had to put my trust in the Lord and not in my own understanding of scripture. This freed me from much fear concerning being right or having it all figured out. It freed me to have strong convictions about what I’ve come to believe, but also have the freedom of humility to recognize that I could be absolutely wrong.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that having a conviction about UR, ECT, Annihilation, or any other doctrine does not necessarily mean that a person’s focus is not on Jesus. I for one, being a teacher, love to study doctrine and come to a place of conviction; but such only flows out of my love for the Lord. I appreciate the well-used definition of theology as being “Faith seeking understanding” though I would change it to “Faith and Love seeking understanding”. It is my faith in the Lord and my love for Him and for people and my gifting as being a teacher that compells me to study scripture and worship and pray, trusting God to lead me into truth. And in seeking the Lord through study, prayer, fellowship, and fasting I came to believe in UR. And I’ve found it to be very liberating, trusting God to reconcile all to Himself in the end, and to reconcile us all with one another.
So for me UR is rooted in my faith in and love for the Lord and has increased my faith in the Lord and love for Him. I no longer have faith in him just to save myself, but I’ve come to have faith in Jesus to save all whom I love - more faith in Jesus. And I no longer only love Him because He has forgiven and loved me, but I love Him more because I believe He’s loved and forgiven all. I no longer wrestle between the sovereignty of God and His love for all, but accept both. I no longer limit the atonement in either scope (Calvinism) or power (Arminianism), but revell in the unlimited scope and power of the Cross!
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AG, I hear you. You are right in that it is unhealthy to focus on one doctrine to the exclusion of all else. We need a balanced diet – and that diet is the Tree of Life and the Water of Life. Our food is our Teacher, Shepherd, Bridegroom, Brother and Friend; our Father, our very Breath, the blessed Holy Spirit. There is so much more to Him/Them than UR.
But . . . I do believe God works with us in seasons. There is a season for this and a season for that, and everything in its season.
Early this year (or maybe late last year) I had a dream in which one of the little boys of our fellowship was greedily devouring one beautiful colorful casserole (we all eat together every week) and eating nothing else. Now this particular boy is not a big eater, so this was odd, but I grew concerned that he was being greedy and needed to save some for others and also that he should be eating some of the other good things that had been provided. I didn’t want to take it away from him, but I began taking some of the food from the casserole to put on another dish so that some of the others could also have some. As I took it from its baking pan, it lost color and became mostly white and tan – very ordinary looking and not appealing at all. And that was the dream.
Later in the morning, I still remembered it. That’s kind of my personal criterion for a “God dream;” that I remember it later, without having tried to. So I asked Abba what it meant. The upshot was that this little boy represented me, and that I shouldn’t try to take the dish away, but should allow him to eat as much as he wanted. At this time, that was what he was supposed to be eating. No one else in the group was in a position to appreciate it as he did, at least at that/this point in time. If I took it from him it would become bland and uninteresting and no one else would want it. I would deprive him and not help anyone else.
Interpreted? I had decided it was time to move on (now this is for me, not for you, so don’t feel I’m preaching at you at all, please!). I felt I was in danger of becoming imbalanced, focusing so much on this new, tasty dish of studying the UR leanings of the Bible. Abba told me (I believe) that He wanted me to stay with this for a while – not to the exclusion of all else, but that this should be my primary focus until He let me know that it was time to move on. He wanted me to understand as much as I could understand, in that this would enable me to share it with others as well as giving me assurance of its truth.
Again, this was my experience, pointed at me. I’m NOT saying that you’re doing wrong by moving on or by holding UR as a hope only. It’s likely that this is God’s will for YOU to do.
But I do want you to understand why some of us stick with it. I agree that it’s wrong and unhealthy to make UR the center of our lives instead of Jesus Himself. For me though, this is an aspect of our Lord that He wants me to learn well. I am AMAZED at His depth and breadth and height, and how there is NEVER an end to searching Him and knowing Him. He is so GOOD to reveal Himself to us so freely and to feed us with His very own life, like a mother nursing her child. His care is beyond my ability to fathom and His goodness, never ending.
Love in our magnificent, vast, and all provident Lord,
Cindy
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Hi Cindy,
That’s an awesome dream. It’s so cool how God speaks to us personally like that. I don’t know that I’ve ever had God speak to me through a dream, but He has spoken to my wife through dreams. On the other hand, I’ve both had a few visions and heard God speak to me very clearly at times.
In my journey, I’ve undergone a few significant changes in belief. And each one was at the result of months of study and prayer concerning that issue, one plate at a time kind thing. I recall when I first started studying the doctrine of Marriage, Divore, and Remarriage. That was a major focus of my life for about 4 years. I studied it until I came to a place of conviction and had worked through most related issues and studied all related scriptures. And that doctrine is not as complex or foundational as UR!
Well, anyhow, thanks for sharing your dream and what God spoke to you through that. That’s awesome.
Thanks, Sherm. God is good.
Hi all,
My first post on this forum; I hope it’s ok bumping up this thread.
Quote from this article.
What are your views on that article?
My first thought was that it is interesting how they omit a large part of Moulton and Milligans definiton of aionios and only cite the part that fits into their agenda.