The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Love This By John Piper!

Practices Christian Living
#21

Michael - ditto with Strurmy,

The context for these remarks is a video produced by Piper against the Health, Wealth and Properity Gopspel. I have some sympahty for him in his feelings about this. You can find the speech here

awkwardmomentsbible.com/john-piper-dead-kid/

and here

rfforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=5458896

However the remarks about suffering for God, and rejoicing in suffering (rather than expecting prosperity) are masochistic in the extreme. Do they really motivate people to want to alleviate suffering. They are also sadistic - the corollary of Pipers beliefs is that he does not know that his hypothetical little girl is one of the elect and will one day see fit to rejoice that God has damned her if this is God’s will. Of course some times people can be a lot better than the beliefs they hold. But I don’t think this video with what seems to me its crass, slick production is going to get anyone to rethink attitudes about prosperity - quite the opposite.

#22

Sobor,

You had an unusual number of spelling blips in that post, so I fixed them for you; double-check and make sure I didn’t inadvertently change anything.

#23

More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. - Romans 5:3-5

as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything. - 2 Cor. 6:10

#24

again, we do weep but the joy of Christ is also there to carry us through it so that it doesn’t have to be our undoing.

#25

You don’t rejoice in the death of the girl in and of itself. But God being a God who brings beauty out of ashes we can rejoice in hope. I don’t believe in eternal suffering. This is where Piper’s views are inconsistent I think. But I do like the idea of being sorrowful yet always rejoicing. It’s scriptural.

#26

Thanks Jason – I was at work and only had half of my mind on the job :blush: :unamused: :slight_smile: .

OK Michael

Part of the problem I find with John Piper’s words – and perhaps it’s just me –is that he is emphasising a partial truth to the point that it becomes untrue and potentially harmful. Jesus suffered and died and rose again; Jesus is also God Incarnate who loved life, loved people, enjoyed their company, took a real interest in them, and had a sense of humour (and is still Jesus in his risen life). Jesus suffered because he entered into a world the world that he loves, not because he loved suffering for its own sake. He also suffered to deal suffering, death, and all that destroys a fatal blow.
The cult of suffering for its own sake is rarely productive in my experience. Yes the prosperity Gospel is moonshine – especially in the third world. But people who are going to overcome poverty and starvation unless they are going to be mere objects o f pity – need to be made to feel confident about themselves, and their own capabilities and creativity – not to be objectified as objects of a remote pity like this. John Piper needs to take a loving interest in these people he is speaking about – in their hopes, fears, humour, courage, and powers of endurance. He needs to dance and sing with some of the objects of his pity.

I think it’s scriptural to see joy and sorrow woven fine and joy coming out of sorrow - so I agree with you :slight_smile:

All very good wishes

Dick :slight_smile:

#27

How do you know he doesn’t? He’s showing some interest right here by speaking against the prosperity gospel.

#28

Fair point Michael - I just have the video to go on. It’s all about suffering and dramatizing it. But that’s only my opinion. I’m English and perhaps I don’t understand some of the cultural subtext. It is only my opinion. I warm to a woman called Etty Hillesum who suffered it the Nazi death camps - who wanted to be a witness for Gods’ love and heal all wounds. She just appeals to me with her warmth and loving kindness and lack of masochism. She sees the beauty and the kindness and the love in a desolate place. And I guess I just don’t warm to Mr Piper. The situation of the girl going through the windscreen is hypothetical to him . At least I think it is hypothetical; John Piper seems fairly public about his own trials, and I’ve not heard of him saying that this has been his lot; also he seems to be just making a dramatic rhetorical point; False prosperity Gospel = thanking God for a new car; True Gospel is to do with the other stuff he has to say about cars. I hope not too many people hear his broadcast who have just lost children in accidents :frowning: :frowning: .

That’s’ all old chum

#29

Why? Christ is the solution in his video. He speaks of going through pain while saying:

“He will get us through this”

His message is one of hope. We can rely and trust Christ (who is our all satisfying joy) in the midst of tragedy like this.

#30

Christ is the solution - I can only say that I don’t have children, but if a friend of mine with children had one of them go through the windscreen I’d wait patiently with them in their suffering, and in their dark night. Christ comes unknown and unbidden into spaces of tragedy to heal wounds.

#31

As does Christ. Just as Piper says:

“He will get us through this”

Do you think Piper does that to those he counsels? You don’t think he’s there for them? How do you know this?

Christ does heal. He has been with me through my healing. I’m not perfect but I’m a lot better than I use to be. I think I will trust Christ and the Word Of God rather than you on this.

#32

Of course you must - I apologise.

#33

Also, JP is fairly well known (I think?) for living an austere lifestyle in what amounts to 3rd-world areas of America, rather than living richly off the proceeds of his work, taking an active interest in its community and social life. Thus taking a loving interest in these people he is speaking about.

Maybe I’ve heard wrong about it, but I recall Tom Talbott emphasizing this, too, that even JP’s opponents either acknowledge this or ought to.

#34

Yes – I was impressed by the sincerity of the message about the Prosperity Gospel - and I completely agree that Michael should trust Christ as Christ meets him not some eejit like me. I still came away from listening to that broadcast disturbed; not by the message that we should trust in Christ – no it was not that at all. I think I’ve stuttered my reasons out here anyway. Yes bless John for his work with the poor and his compassion towards them – and for his message of trust in Christ.

#35

Fwiw, I agree that his message is disturbing when taken in conjunction with what else he believes. :cry:

#36

Yes, I don’t believe everything Piper does.

#37

That is well worth knowing. Thank you for that Jason.

#38

Here’s verification of that from John Piper’s “I was a racist”

It’s an interesting read. I find tales of Southern racism and segregation morbidly fascinating. I can’t personally relate to the racist issue, having grown up in a interracial family (Chinese mom x Dutch/Scotch Irish dad), and in a later generation in the multi racial and not very racist West.

Sonia

#39

MacD would no doubt have something very appreciative to say about how JP lives his life much better than his theology. :slight_smile:

#40

The main things I disagree with Piper’s theology is limited atonement and eternal suffering. When Piper says that God ordains something He means: either God directly causes something or that He permits something (evil) to happen. This is a truth taught in scripture. Piper doesn’t believe that God directly causes evil. For this would make Him the author of evil. Rather He permits it (for morally sufficient reasons) to bring about His overall plans and purposes. His permitting evil it is a kind of indirect causing. That is, His permission is a kind of secondary causing not a direct causing. For example: Satan gets permission from God to torment Job. God allowed Satan to take Job’s family and make Job sick. Yet Job says, “The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away” and “Shall we receive good from God and shall we not receive evil” - to which the writer responds: “In all this Job did not sin with his lips”.

When God permits evil He has morally sufficient reasons for doing so. That is, God’s intentions are good, Satan’s intentions are evil. One act - two intentions. What Satan means for evil God means for good.

I don’t know God’s sovereign will neither do I ponder it and try and figure it out. Rather, I trust Him. With my faith in Him anxieties and frustrations are broken and my heart opens up to love.

Faith-Hope-Love

Piper’s right on the money.