The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Mat. 10:28

I wrote the following a couple of years ago.

Matthew 10:28 (cf. Luke 12:4-5)

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Though perhaps an alien concept to most Christians and non-Christians alike, the word here translated “soul” (psuche) is never said or implied in Scripture to refer to an immortal part of man’s nature, and unless this verse is the single exception, the word is never used to denote a part of man that can exist in a disembodied state after death. Far from teaching this, the word psuche is being employed by Christ in the same sense as he uses it in Matthew 6:25 (cf. Matt 2:10):

*Therefore, I tell you, do not be anxious about your life (psuche), what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life (psuche) more than food, and the body more than clothing? *

Both here and in Matthew 10:28, psuche simply denotes the natural, biological life of a person (which must be sustained by food and water), while soma is being employed by Christ to refer to a person’s physical frame (which can be clothed or stripped naked). With this contrast kept in mind, there is a sense in which one’s “body” (as distinguished from one’s life) can be “killed” without one’s life being “killed” as well. In the former case, severe bodily harm may be inflicted, while the person’s life is spared. But in the latter case, it is the life itself upon which harm is inflicted, which can only result in the total destruction of the person. Thus, when soma (i.e., the physical frame of a person) and psuche (a person’s natural life) are distinguished, the body may be spoken of as being “killed” or “destroyed” without one’s life being “killed” or “destroyed” as well. That this is indeed the case will be even more evident when we consider the first time the expression “destroy both body and soul” is used in Scripture.

To speak of “soul and body” being “destroyed” was evidently a common Jewish expression with which Christ’s disciples were well acquainted. There is no indication that Christ’s disciples misunderstood what he meant by the destruction of “soul and body” in Gehenna." This is evident, because when they did not comprehend his meaning on other occasions, we find them making all the necessary inquiries. But here, they made none. From this single circumstance it is evident that they did not learn the meaning of this expression from Jesus, but that it was instead a common expression and proverb of that day. Now, by comparing Matt 10:28 with Isaiah 10:16-18, we can see that it was used as a proverbial expression denoting the total destruction of anything to which it was applied:

Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors, and under his glory a burning will be kindled, like the burning of fire. The light of Israel will become a fire, and his Holy One a flame, and it will burn and devour his thorns and briers in one day. The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land the LORD will destroy, both soul and body, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away. Isaiah 10:16-18

Here, we find God threatening a national judgment against Assyria, after having judged Israel. The expression under consideration is applied to the destruction of the glory of the king of Assyria’s “forest and fruitful land,” making the expression obviously figurative in this instance. The literal meaning of the expression “destruction of soul and body,” however, seems to refer to that which takes place when “a sick man wastes away.” This agrees with our observation that the “body” could be spoken of as being “killed” (or in this case, “destroyed”) without the “soul,” or life, necessarily being “killed” (or “destroyed”) as well. But when a sick man “wastes away,” his condition is such that both his life and his physical frame are progressively “destroyed” by the illness. Thus, whether this expression is understood figuratively or literally, it has nothing to do with the punishment or annihilation of “immortal souls” in a “disembodied” state of existence.

Moreover, Christ is not talking about a post-mortem judgment when he employs the word that is here and elsewhere translated “hell” in less literal translations of the English Bible. The word he uses is “Gehenna,” which literally means “Valley of Hinnom” in the Greek language, and is the proper name of an actual valley that lies just south of the city Jerusalem. Originally known as “the valley of the sons of Hinnom,” this location is referred to in the Old Testament in the following verses: Josh 15:8, 18:16; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron 28:3, 33:6; Neh 11:30; Jer 7:31, 32, 19:2, 6, 32:35. In most of these verses it is to be understood in its literal sense. But in Jeremiah 19 (cf. 7:30-34) we read that, by God’s authority, the Valley of Hinnom (“Gehenna”) – which was also known as “Topheth” (v. 6) - was made an emblem, or figure, of the temporal calamities which God threatened to bring upon the unfaithful nation of Israel for her sins (v. 12).

Other than its literal and emblematic meaning, no other meaning is ever attached to this word in the inspired Scriptures. Any other meaning one may choose to assign to the word (for whatever reason) is simply without divine sanction and authority. Though for centuries the idea of post-mortem, unending torment has been attached to this word by “orthodox” theologians, this sense is entirely foreign to its inspired meaning as found in Jeremiah 19. To make it refer to a place of endless misery in a future existence (or to any kind of punishment after death) is to completely disregard how it is used and defined in Scripture. Moreover, because Christ gives no indication of introducing a new emblematic meaning to a word whose meaning had long ago been fixed by his own inspired Scriptures, we can confidently maintain that, whenever Christ employs “Gehenna” in a non-literal sense, he is ascribing to it the same emblematic meaning that was assigned to it by God in Jeremiah’s day.

Just as in Jeremiah’s day, a severe judgment upon the nation of Israel was looming over the horizon when Christ spoke these words to his disciples. In Matthew 23:32-36 (cf. 1 Thess 2:15-16; Isaiah 65:6-7), we read of Christ warning the religious leaders of the Jewish nation that, upon their filling up the measure of their fathers’ sins, their generation would be severely punished. No other generation is in view but the one to which Christ spoke. In verse 33 of this passage, Christ refers to this approaching judgment upon that generation as their being sentenced to “Gehenna” (i.e., the Valley of Hinnom). Any Jew familiar with their Hebrew Scriptures would have understood Jesus’ words to be a warning of an impending national judgment, because it is this of which “Gehenna” (or “Topheth,” which was a location within this valley) had become an emblem (again, see Jeremiah 19, whole chapter; cf. chap. 7:30-34). Christ goes on to say (vv. 37-38),

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate…

Here Christ is referring to that terrible judgment that would come upon the guilty nation of Israel. Their capital city, Jerusalem, would be completely overthrown, and their “house” (i.e., the temple) would be left to them “desolate.” This national judgment fell upon the Jewish people like a thunderbolt at the climax of the Jewish-Roman war in 70 A.D., when the Roman army, led by General Titus, sacked the city of Jerusalem and utterly destroyed the temple. More than a million Jews perished during this violent overthrow of the Jewish nation.

So what is Jesus saying in the verse under consideration? There are two possible views. Understood in the larger context of Matthew 10:16-23, Jesus’ words “kill the body” may refer to the bodily punishment which the Jewish persecutors of the early Christian church were allowed to inflict upon people in the synagogues, and stands in contrast with what the Roman authorities had the power to do (cf. John 18:31), and of which they took full advantage at the climax of the Jewish rebellion in 70 AD when countless Jews were slaughtered. But Christ’s obedient and watchful followers escaped this fearful calamity by heeding their Lord’s words to flee the city of Jerusalem and the surrounding area when God gave them opportunity (Matt 24:15-20; cf. Luke 21:20-21). In this way, those Jewish Christians who fled from the impending judgment upon the Jewish nation were spared from being destroyed “body and soul.” when God brought judgment upon the corrupt nation of Israel through the instrumentality of the Roman army.

An alternative (though similar) view is that Jesus is not referring to the literal bodies and lives of individual people, but is using the expression in a figurative sense to refer to the early Church as a corporate whole. “Destroying the body” refers to the intense persecution and death that many Christians suffered prior to the overthrow of Jerusalem. But God would not allow the Church to be utterly destroyed by her enemies (i.e., destroyed both body and soul); as Christ prophesied, the gates of Hades (death) would not prevail against his Bride (Matt 16:18). Thus it could be said that, though persecuted severely, the “soul” or “life” of the Church was spared during this tumultuous time.

Aaron,
I can’t quite agree with you, because it says that they can kill the body, but* cannot *kill the soul. I do agree that our commonly held notion of ‘soul’ is probably wrong.

I’m inclined to think that, in this passage, Jesus is teaching and assuring them that even if a person’s body is killed, his life cannot be utterly extinguished by man. That only God has the power to annihilate.

Your thoughts?
Sonia

Hi Sonia,

I’ve never been completely satisfied with any interpretation of this verse, which has kept me from ruling out other views (including one that may be close to your own). But of the two options presented in my paper, I’ve found the second more plausible than the first - i.e., that Christ is using the expression “destroy body and soul” as it is used in Isaiah 10:18 (i.e., as a figurative, proverbial saying) and applying it to the survival of the Church as a corporate whole amidst severe persecutions, and in view of a future judgment coming upon the nation of Israel (that which is represented by the term “Gehenna”). According to this view, Christ is both exhorting his disciples to remain faithful as well as comforting them with the promise that the Church which he had begun to build would not be utterly destroyed by her persecutors. To say that the persecutors of the early Church (both Jewish and Roman) could “kill the body” but could not “kill the soul” simply means they did not have the power or authority to utterly exterminate the Church from the earth; it is for this reason Christ says they “cannot kill the soul.” When Christ spoke these words, the only one who had the authority to do this (i.e., “destroy both body and soul in Gehenna”) was God - and since that would never happen under God’s providential care, Christ tells his disciples not to fear (v. 31).

Aaron

This has nothing to do with annihilationism, but everything to do with death where the worm would have never quit had it not been for Christ. All that the Father had given Him will be raised on the last day. Had it been only the 12, Christ would have died for them, a friend giving his life for another - though all abandoned Him at the cross. The obedient Son of God following through to save even one. It’s only through the 12 that we learn that everyone will be raised. The Father had given Him all of mankind! Imagine that! ALL will raised.

What a gift to His Son! And now what? People think THAT gift should or will be reduced by annihilating ‘hard cases.’ As if we weren’t or still are all in the same category? The hypocrisy of the self-righteous never ceases to amaze. They, of all people - since they will be judged the most harshly for using Christ for their ends, should be praying that annihilation is the religious myth they fostered and nothing more. But a hypocrite is locked into a paradigm that makes them the most blind of men. I know my Redeemer (from death and annihilation) is alive.

God help from those who sit in judgment on mankind.

Aaron,

It is certainly an honor to discuss these matters with someone so well-read in the scriptural contexts, and who can present his case in such proper detail! I don’t know about anyone else, but I am greatly thankful you are here; and I hope that you will remain and contribute for a long time to come! :smiley:

Moreover, there are many portions of your essay that I agree with–seeing as I do take the destruction of Jerusalem to have been a partial fulfillment of Jesus’ coming-judgment prophecies.

However. :mrgreen:

1.) While there is a distinction between apo-ktein, ‘from-kill’ (or to kill away-from), and apolesai ‘destroy/lose’ in Matt 10:28, there is no such distinction in the parallel saying at Luke 12:5. Admittedly, there is some question as to whether these sayings, and the surrounding contexts, were given to the disciples at two different times and places (before sending out on an evangelistic mission in GosMatt, or on the road to Jerusalem in GosLuke); or whether one or the other author decided to port the sayings topically over from one ‘scene’ to the other. But the similarities in both cases, not only for this saying but many of the surrounding sayings, would tend to indicate that the meanings are principly similar (unless some significant difference can be found, perhaps tailored to the immediate circumstances.)

Consequently, the parallel at Luke 12 has to be reckoned with. And the verb soley in use there, while it can certainly also mean destroy, is primarily a strong word to kill. (In Cry of Justice, as well as a callback in Book 3, I have a character command her soldiers “Destroy them as they die”–a formal way of commanding overkill by saturation. She would be using apoktein, to kill-away.)

Thus, Matt’s report: Now, do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Luke’s report: do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more they can do. But I will warn (or show) you whom to fear: fear the One Who after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear that One!

2.) While it may be possible to find uses of ‘destroy’ (apollumi and cognates) that don’t involve the death of the body (and/or the psuche), is there any use of that strong word for kill anywhere that doesn’t mean to actually kill?!

When Herod is wanting to {apoktein} John the Baptist (Matt 14:5), and later Herodias is wanting to {apoktein} him (Mark 6:19), are they only talking about withering his body without killing him? True, Herod keeps him alive in prison, and actually comes to be friends with him (in a way); but the reason Herod kept him alive to begin with was because he was afraid of the general populace mobbing, since they considered JohnBapt a prophet. If {apoktein} only meant punish while leaving alive there, Herod acted from the beginning at odds to his own fear of the mob, and the statement at Matt 14:5 would make less than no sense!

When GosMatt (16:21) and GosLuke (9:22), also GosMark (8:31), say that the Messiah is to be {apoktein}ed and then roused from the dead, do you think they intend to represent Jesus as meaning He only expects to be scourged and maybe imprisoned for a while before metaphorically rising from the dead?!

Ditto when Christ warns that men will be apoktein-ing Him (Matt 17:23, Luke 18:33, also Mark 9:31 twice and 10:34).

It’s admittedly possible that when the Jewish leaders are reported as seeking to destroy Christ, they may only mean to destroy His reputation (though perhaps in various fatal ways such as getting the mob to attack Him, or getting Rome to arrest and execute Him). But by Matt 26:4 (ditto Mark 14:1), which use the term apoktein instead, things have surely moved along rather more literally in the planning of the chief priests, haven’t they?!

John 5:16 might perhaps only mean ruin instead of kill (though the word is certainly apoktein), but when it goes on to emphasize two verses later at 18 that because He was saying His own Father also is God, making Himself equal to God, they were seeking more to apoktein Him–is merely seeking more to socially ruin Him (or maybe scourge Him) what we should be culturally expecting from that rampup?!

Again, John 7:1 might perhaps only mean ruin instead of kill (though the word is certainly apoktein again), but when the exact same term is used three times later in the chapter (vv.19, 20, 25), is that the context that makes the most sense??–the group (of Jewish leaders) Jesus is talking to answers back that Jesus is demented because He thinks they are seeking to only soundly punish Him and let Him go?!

Ditto GosJohn 8:37, 40. Same term, apoktein. And this scene ends with the group (who had actually been believing in Him after He had stood up to their peers earlier in the chapter) becoming so hacked off at Jesus for declaring of Himself that “Before Abraham came into being, I AM!” in answer to their retort that He is not yet even 50 years old and He has seen Abraham, that they picked up stones to throw at Him. Is heavily bruising someone the traditionally understood punishment for claiming to be God Almighty?!

In the immediately preceding scene, when Jesus sorrowfully tells the assembled Pharisee leaders that “I am going away, and you will be seeking Me, and in your sin shall you be dying. Where I am going, you cannot be coming,” some of them retort, “Will he not apoktein himself, seeing that he is saying, ‘Where I am going you cannot be coming’!?” (8:22) Jesus replies, “You are of the below!–I am of the above! You are of this world; I am not of this world. I said, then, to you, that you shall be dying in your sins. For if ever you should not be believing Me, that I am, you shall be dying in your sins!” They are only talking back and forth about being sick with disease or beaten up badly, right? Not about actually dying and actually being killed?!–the other way is the most reasonable and natural way to understand them?!

John 11:53, the high priest Caiaphas has just said to the other chief priests, “You know nothing in the least!–nor are you reckoning that it is expedient for us that one man should be DYING for the sake of the people rather than that the whole nation should PERISH.” And the author has just continued by commenting that Caiaphas said this, not of himself, but as a legitimate prophecy (being the high priest for that year) that Jesus was about to be DYING for the sake of the nation, and not only for the sake of the nation. “From that day then”, the Evangelist continues, “they are consulting that they should apoktein Him.” So, would you say the most reasonable way to read this context is that they don’t mean killing him to death, but only severely punishing Him (like a synagogue discipline) and then letting Him go?!

Luke 13:31, a Pharisee deputation arrives to (apparently) bluff Jesus away from Jerusalem with the warning that Herod wants to apoktein Him. (In fact, Herod is very much interested in Jesus and wants to meet Him, as GosLuke makes clear elsewhere. He has no particular desire to even punish Him and let Him go–not yet anyway.) Jesus replies they should take a message back to “that jackal”, that it is not credible that a prophet should perish outside Jerusalem. So, how would you say the reader should understand the threat at this point in the story, a week or less before the crucifixion (whether this particular threat was a bluff or not)? Only a severe bodily punishment, or to perish by being killed-away?

In the parable of the rebel vineyard tenants (GosMatt 21:33-46; GosLuke 20:9-19; also GosMark 12:1-12), how does it read to you? When the king sends his son at the last, expecting them to respect him, and they apoktein the son instead (Matt 21:38,39; Mark 12:7,8; Luke 20:14-15), do you think they are only giving him a good whipping and then running him out of the vineyard in shame? Is that how we should read and understand it?

When the Jewish leaders petition Pilate in GosJohn 18, and he replies (v.31) that they should take Him and judge Him according to their law, they reply, “It is not allowed to us,” i.e. by the Roman state, “to apoktein anyone!” The Evangelist goes on to explain (in v.32) that they said this so that the word of Jesus, which He had said, would be fulfilled, signifying what death He was about to be dying. So, we shouldn’t read this as meaning they’re talking about actually killing Him?! They only mean that they have no permission from Rome to discipline someone with punishment according to their law?–Pilate was only testing them to see if they remembered?! (That would go rather against all the other times that synagogue disciplining of Christians occur throughout the Empire in the NT, including earlier in GosJohn itself, without Rome giving much of a hoot…)

When Peter, in Acts 3, is testifying before the Sanhedrin concerning his ability to heal a man known to have been lame from his mother’s womb, he accuses them: “The Inaugurator of Life you apoktein, Whom God rouses from death, of which we are witnesses!” (v.15) But Peter only means they beat Jesus severely, right?–that is how we are to read it?

When St. Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians that the Jews who apoktein the Lord Jesus as well as the prophets “and banish us” are not pleasing to God, he only means that they banished the Lord Jesus after severely punishing Him, right? Not talking about two different things (killing-away, and banishing)?

When the ship carrying St. Paul and some fellow prisoners to Rome starts to founder in a storm, the guards recommend apokteining the prisoners (Acts 27:42) so that they won’t escape (and the guards won’t be legally held liable for them). Culturally, though, we should only expect this to mean whipping the prisoners and sending them away from the ship, or something like that, so that they won’t escape, right?

I could give more examples. (When people are being apokteined by the saber in Rev 6:8, that only means giving them some cuts as punishment, right?)

You could of course reply that in these cases, context clearly indicates that yes the people being apokteined (or threatened by that) are being killed. Not just punished in some strong but non-fatal way. But my point is, first, that this is how the verb is usually applied (and maybe universally so in GosMatt and GosLuke, the two texts under immediate consideration); and second that some of the contexts referenced above actually have some connection to your argument in other regards; and third, that since the face-value meaning of the verb is pretty obvious, too (not only killing but killing in some spectacular fashion, like watching someone in a movie kill-hit someone so hard the body flies away which is the imagery the first metaphorical application appeals back to), shouldn’t that (killing in some overtly spectacular fashion) be our first interpretation unless context arguably indicates otherwise?

If you answer that the immediate textual context indicates otherwise, my first answer is going to be that I don’t think your argument (as presented so far) even tried to establish that by apoktein (or even apolesai) the immediate contexts don’t mean kill (even in GosMatt, much less in GosLuke which doesn’t have two different verbs for the saying but only apoktein). You tried to explain it in regard to much larger scale contexts, including OT refs. (True, Jesus goes on in both Gospel reports to reassure his listeners that they shouldn’t fear God after all, but that’s going to be the same regardless of what the verbs are supposed to mean in the specific verses under examination.) My second answer is going to be that I think your appeal to larger scale contexts is kind of dicey, too! :mrgreen: But I’d rather stay focused on immediate contexts for the moment.

3.) The question of the typical use of apoktein in the New Testament (and especially in GosMatt and GosLuke) is of more than passing relevance to the general thrust of your interpretation; because your conclusions totally require (a) apoktein in the Matt version (at least) only applying to non-lethal disciplinary action (by synagogues for example); and (b) God’s threatened action (apolusai in GosMatt, but apoktein again in GosLuke) happening only in this life, not post-mortem.

As I have shown, though, apoktein is not typically used in the NT (especially in the Gospels) to mean only non-lethal (if stern) disciplinary action; on the contrary, there are times when the term is used by contrast to such non-lethal punishment.

And while it may be argued that the Matthean version might be unclear (at least) as to what God would be doing (or when, rather) if He destroyed both body and soul (psuche) in Gehenna, the Lukan version is pretty dang clear (so to speak): God has authority to cast people into Gehenna after killing. That’s the contrast–don’t be afraid of those who, after they have killed the body have nothing “more excessive” (as it reads in the Greek) that they can do to a person. Be afraid of the One Who has the authority to do something more excessive after killing.

The only way around this is to try to present apoktein to clearly mean something much less than kill-away, and even much less than God throwing a person into Gehenna after non-lethally-kill-awaying them (because the same kill-away term is used is used for God’s action, too, in GosLuke). And frankly, this just looks extremely tenuous based on the evidence at hand for use of the verb in question. Awesome terms like “kill-away” are not typically invented and applied for much-less-than-less-than-awesome purposes; and the emphatic use of the term in the NT bears this out.

4.) Your argument also relies explicitly (from the outset even) on this being true: “the word here translated ‘soul’ (psuche) is never said or implied in Scripture to refer to an immortal part of man’s nature, and unless this verse is the single exception, the word is never used to denote a part of man that can exist in a disembodied state after death.”

There is something to be said in favor of considering “soul” to be connected somehow, in many (or most) uses, to “natural, biological life”. (Which would usually be zoe_ in Greek, by the way.) Certainly the word is being used in connection with a life that requires food and water shortly afterward in Matt 10 (as you reported).

However, the term’s underlying Hebrew word nephesh is also used for inorganic things like rocks, in the OT. And more importantly, the nephesh/psuche is regarded as a gift from God Who (and this is of great importance) also has psuche! And this use of the term happens not long afterward in GosMatt, chp 12:18 (quoting OT scripture no less). Nor can it be said that what is being referenced is the psuche of the Son Incarnate–though that would admittedly be a reasonable first guess–because the distinction of Persons being referenced here applies the term to the Father Whose psuche delights in His beloved Son.

Similarly, it is probably not only Jesus’ natural, biological life that is sorrow-stricken (Matt 26:38; Mark 14:34) nor disturbed (John 12:27). It is not very likely that (only?) the natural, biological life is going to hades, where (whether David’s or the Messiah’s) it is not forsaken by God by the way. (Acts 2:27. I say “by the way” since there are some people who, explicitly instructing us to ignore the scriptural contexts of the cry from the cross as well as ignoring some GosJohn testimony that the Father shall not abandon the Son, insist that God the Father forsakes the Son on the cross. Though not you, hopefully. :mrgreen: ) And when 3000 souls were added as a result of his first sermon (Acts 2:41), are we to understand this as meaning only 3000 natural, biological lives? Is Peter only talking about natural, biological life when exhorting us to commit our psuche to God? (1 Pet 4:19) Or when he reports Lot’s just soul being grieved? (2 Pet 2:8) When Jesus tells us that the greatest commandment (Matt 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27) is to love the Lord our God with all our psuche, is He only talking about our natural, biological life (especially in context with the rest of that statement)? When the psuche of Jesus’ mother Mary was magnifying the Lord (Luke 1:46), did that only mean her natural, biological life?–and when she was warned in prophesy by Simeon (Luke 2:35) that a sword would be striking through her own psuche as well, did he mean only her natural, biological life? (Was she struck down by the spear to the heart as well at the cross??) When the rich man in the parable of the greater grain-bins is taking counsel with himself by saying to his psuche, “Psuche, many good things have you laid up for many years! Rest, eat, drink and make merry!” (Luke 12:19), was he addressing only his natural, biological life? When St. Paul writes in Phil 2:2 that the congregation should be joined in one psuche, is he talking only about natural, biological life?–is that consonant with the whole context of that passage? (Woo-hoo! LOVE FEASTS!! :mrgreen: Where the heck are the orgies in my church on Sunday morning? I’m clearly missing out! Moving to a larger church hasn’t helped at all!–though admittedly the prospects do seem better in some regards. :laughing: )

I am aware, of course, that sometimes psuche means something more natural. (Heck, sometimes it even means something diabolical (James 3:15)!–which again doesn’t seem quite on par with natural, biological life.) It’s somewhat like the way we use the word “heart”. Or, for that matter, it’s somewhat like the way “heart” is used in the Bible. I thought it was very common knowledge that psuche can easily go either way. (One interesting attempt at getting a standard NT definitional usage, involves psuche, or psyche as we would spell it nowadays, being the result of an organic body combining with spirit, for example. I strenuously doubt that this attempt holds up altogether in practice; but it does work pretty well in many cases, including some of the ones I just reffed.)

But then again, maybe you’re a Mormon, and so believe that God the Father (as that Person per se) has a mortal characteristic that does not and cannot exist without an embodied state. :slight_smile: That might be an important doctrinal provision to mention, if so! (And, if so, welcome to our group as the first Mormon commenter I would be aware of, by the way. :smiley: I don’t mean that insultingly; it just occurred to me that this might explain your statement.)

5.) Aaron: “Other than its literal and emblematic meaning [concerning pre-mortem temporal punishments], no other meaning is ever attached to this word [Gehenna] in the inspired Scriptures. Any other meaning one may choose to assign to the word (for whatever reason) is simply without divine sanction and authority.”

I’ll save this particular detail for another day. :wink: It’s true that the term Gehenna doesn’t show up often in the NT (and all but one time it’s in the Synoptics. The other time the term is used is James 3:6. I’m more than a little doubtful that the meaning assigned there can only be either literal, or else emblematic in the sense you gave. Hopefully this won’t mean that whatever meaning assigned to the word for whatever reason in that case is “simply without divine sanction and authority”! :laughing: But it’s also beside the point for the current discussion. I just thought a caution about making such an absolute pronouncement might be in order. Also, you might not consider the Jacobin Epistle to be inspired Scripture, perhaps.)

I’ve got to eat lunch, and then get to work on ‘work’ work this afternoon, so I’ll hold off more commentary and critique until later. This should be plenty to start with anyway. :slight_smile:

Again, thanks very much for writing in on discussion. I’m looking forward to you contributing to some related threads, too!

Hi Jason,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough critique of my paper; it was well-received. As I said to Sonia, I haven’t yet settled on any interpretation of this verse…and since I wrote that paper 2 years ago, I’ve become even less attached to the interpretations I offer therein (especially the first interpretation, which for a while now I’ve felt was somewhat weaker than the second), and I’ve always been willing to part with both interpretations if something more satisfactory were to come along. And in light of the valid objections I think you provide in your response (primarily points 1-3), doing so will be that much easier.

At the same time, your point #4 was hardly necessary (although parts of it were certainly entertaining, and elicited a chuckle or two! :slight_smile: ). I do not, in fact, believe psuche to only carry the meaning of “natural, biological life.” What I said was this:

“…the word here translated “soul” (psuche) is never said or implied in Scripture to refer to an immortal part of man’s nature, and unless this verse is the single exception, the word is never used to denote a part of man that can exist in a disembodied state after death. Far from teaching this, the word psuche is being employed by Christ in the same sense as he uses it in Matthew 6:25 (cf. Matt 2:10),”

and,

"Both here and in Matthew 10:28, psuche simply denotes the natural, biological life of a person…"

So while I do state what I believe psuche does not mean (i.e., what is commonly referred to as the “immortal soul”), I do not, in fact, state what psuche must mean, without exception, throughout Scripture. In another paper I wrote a few years ago, I state the following:

"The Hebrew and Greek words translated soul are nephash and psuche, respectively. Based on how these words are consistently used throughout Scripture, we can understand “soul” in the following ways:

  1. Any created organism whose complexity of organization gives it a capacity for sentient existence; or

  2. That which is common to, and characteristic of, all created, sentient beings (such as life, sensation, instinct, desires, affections, etc.).

(I add the following in a footnote: “For a few examples where nephesh means “desire” or “appetite,” see Ex 15:9; Deut 23:24; Ps 27:12; Prov 6:30, 23:2; Eccl 6:7, 9; Jer 22:27; Micah 7:3; Hab 2:5. Because the Hebrew and Greek words translated “soul” (nephesh and psuche, respectively) can denote both a sentient creature and those attributes that are common to sentient creatures (such as desire and life), there is occasionally some overlap in meaning between them and the words translated “spirit” (ruach/pneuma). For example, whenever “body” (soma) and “soul” (psuche) are distinguished in the NT (e.g., in Matt 6:25), “soul” stands for the life that is common to all biological beings (which must be sustained by food and water, and can be “lost” if one dies, or “saved” if one is kept alive). Whenever body, soul and spirit are distinguished in the NT (e.g., in 1 Thess 5:23), “soul” likely denotes the seat of the desires, emotions and appetites (again, that which is common to all sentient creatures), while “spirit” refers to the conscious thought-life or mental disposition of a person (a capacity possessed only by personal beings such as God, humans and angels); see definition (2) of “spirit.” It may also be added that, in both the OT and the NT, the Hebrew and Greek words translated “heart” are (when used in a figurative sense) equivalent to this second definition of “spirit” (i.e., the governing thought pattern or mental disposition of a person, from which good or evil intentions spring – see Matt 15:18-19).”)

I go on to say, “Under the first definition (which is by far the most common use of the word in Scripture), the word translated “soul” refers to a physical, material creature, and has no reference at all to any aspect of human nature that is immortal, or that maintains a conscious existence after death. Instead, it simply denotes the physical, embodied person themselves. In Leviticus 5:1-4, a soul, or nephash, can see, hear, touch and speak with lips. In Leviticus 7:20-27, it is said that souls can eat and be killed. In Deut 14:26, it is said that souls can hunger and thirst. In Jeremiah 2:34, souls are said to have blood. We are further told that souls can be strangled or snared (Prov. 18:7; 22:25; Job 7:15), torn to pieces by lions (Psalm 7:2) or utterly destroyed by the sword (Josh 11:11; cf. Josh. 10:30-39; Eze. 22:27; Prov. 6:32; Lev. 23:30). Through the prophet Ezekiel, God warned the Israelites that “the soul that sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20; cf. James 5:20). And in Psalm 89:48, it is asked whether one could deliver one’s soul from “the power of Sheol.” David says (concerning Christ) that God would not abandon his soul in Sheol, or let him see corruption (Psalm 16:10; cf. Acts 2:27). Since David is employing Hebrew parallelism (i.e., where the writer expresses the same thought in slightly different words), it follows that for God to abandon Christ’s soul (Christ himself) in Sheol would mean to let him “see corruption” (which is an obvious reference to his physical body, which would have begun to decompose had God not raised him from the dead).”

Continuing: “All of these verses make perfect sense if we simply understand that “soul” is being used interchangeably with a physical, human person. Because the Hebrew and Greek words translated “soul” have the primary sense of a sentient creature when human persons are in view, it is frequently used interchangeably with the human “self.” Hence, the term is also employed emphatically to refer to the persons themselves. For example, when David says, “I humbled my soul with fasting” (Ps. 35:13), it is simply an emphatic way of saying “I humbled myself with fasting.” Similarly, for Job to say, “My soul is weary of life” (Job 10:1) is simply an emphatic way of saying “I am weary of life.” And for Samson to say, “Let my soul die with the Philistines” (Judges 16:30) is simply to say, “Let me die with the Philistines.” For the prophet Jeremiah to say, “They have dug a pit for my soul” (Jer 18:20) is another way of saying, “they have dug a pit for me.” And in places like Psalm 89:48, “his soul” simply means “he.” Humans are not the only beings referred to as souls, however. The first four times that the word nephash is used in the Bible, it is applied to the lower forms of animal life that God created – i.e., flying, land-dwelling and aquatic creatures (Genesis 1:20-21, 24-25; cf. Rev 16:3). Significantly, the expression nephesh chaiyah (“living soul”) occurs only twelve times in the Old Testament, and of those twelve times, it is applied to human beings only once (Gen 2:7).”

I also have a good deal to say about the words translated “spirit,” (ruach and pneuma), but I’ll forgo posting that for now.

No, I’m definitely not a Mormon! (Although I do enjoy having discussions with them when they come to my door on occasion!) When God refers to his soul, I understand such language to be anthropomorphic (for lack of a better word, since “soul” refers to other created beings besides man), and that it is simply an emphatic way of referring to God’s self (see my examples above in the last paragraph quoted).

Actually, I would suggest that James is in fact ascribing to “Gehenna” its literal meaning in this verse, just as he is ascribing the literal meaning to “fire.” He’s merely using such words in poetic expressions to create a colourful image for his reader, in order to more effectively make his point. It’s my understanding that, by James’ day, Gehenna had become a dump where all the refuse of the city was burned. And while he’s ascribing the literal meaning to the word, the expression in which he uses the word is not to be understood literally - for no one’s tongue is literally set on fire by this dump located south of Jerusalem. But James wanted his readers to get an image of that literal, burning valley in their minds when they thought about the harm which their words could inflict on both others and themselves.

How do you understand Gehenna, and what is your basis for so understanding it?

Aaron

Alright Jason, after having mulled over Matt 10:28 and Luke 12:5 since I first replied to this thread, I’d like to put forth the following interpretation, which, though not revolutionary (being only a modification of the early universalist view), is perhaps most consistent with a natural, straight-forward reading of both texts. As argued in my original paper, I still hold that psuche means the same thing in Matt 10:28 as it does in Matt 6:25. However, I think a better definition of psuche (for these verses) would be something akin to “the common distinguishing property or attribute of all living things” (i.e., the animating principle which is common to all living things). What I continue to deny is that this word denotes any part of man which consciously exists in a disembodied state after death (something for which I still see no scriptural support :confused: ).

Now, by God’s having the power to kill or destroy both man’s body and the “animating principle” which keeps him alive, I believe is meant that God alone has the power and authority to decree that this animating principle be permanently withheld from man (i.e., that his life be permanently extinguished). And Christ adds the words “in Gehenna” in Matt 10:28 to emphasize that this permanent annihilation of both body and life could take place amidst the greatest and most severe of temporal judgments (which the judgment of Gehenna most certainly was). But like J.W. Hanson (et al), I understand the ability of God to do this to be no indicator that he will, in fact, do it. So why then do we have reason to fear that he may do it? Answer: we don’t, and that seems to be the very point of Christ’s words (as I believe you yourself point out in your response to Tom earlier in this thread). If God (who is our heavenly Father) is the only one who has the power to do this, then we have nothing to fear - for we are far too valuable in God’s eyes for him to permanently withhold from us the gift of life with which he originally blessed us.

Your thoughts?

Aaron

This article: britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/533337/self begins by saying that self is:

And that makes me wonder how much the idea of ‘soul’ has changed over time.

Sonia

I should also add that, if the last interpretation I offered is valid (and I’m still not completely sold on it!), then implied in Jesus’ words in Luke 12:4-5 is that which Matthew adds in his parallel account (assuming the accounts are parallel) about “body and soul” being “destroyed” in Gehenna. Thus, the meaning of the expression, “fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into Gehenna” would be, “fear him who, after he has killed the body, has authority to permanently destroy the very life of man amid the judgment of Gehenna.” In this sense, to be “cast” into Gehenna should be understood as much stronger language than merely being killed at the time of this judgment - it would convey the idea of permanent destruction, and the removal of all hope of one’s life being restored, immediately following one’s death.

Thoughts?

So what you are saying is that the difference between those that can kill the body, but not the soul, and the One who can kill both body and soul is ultmately tied to the Resurrection?

Yet as someone who was experientially ‘if not actually’ ‘annihilated’ before I was born it hardly seems something to be feared - as Mark Twain remarked…

'Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born --a hundred million years --and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together. There was a peace, a serenity, an absence of all sense of responsibility, an absence of worry, an absence of care, grief, perplexity; and the presence of a deep content and unbroken satisfaction in that hundred million years of holiday which I look back upon with a tender longing and with a grateful desire to resume, when the opportunity comes. ’

The idea of being resurrected to be annihilated is a speculation that would find much more support in the NT if it were true. Instead we find Christ preaching to the dead from the flood - why would He do that if they were annihilated or about to be?

"All will be made alive in Christ’ I think the concept of annihilation so drastically changes the Gospel that it must be thrown out by the shear weight of scripture against it.

On another thread, we found this to be an irrevocable truth: “Every knee shall bow.” That’s the end game and it rules out annihilation. It’s not ‘every knee that’s left…’ - God is not at war with us that so great a salvation is measured by body count. We are not the enemy - death is, according to Paul. So why would Christ be siding with death, when the victor in annihilation is death itself? Do the speculators even care? With every wind of doctrine…

In a very real sense, the Gospel is about the victory over annihilation - postulating some state that is deader than dead seems, to me, a useless play on words.

Assuming this view is correct, yes - but even then, the situation is completely hypothetical, since (according to this view), Christ is not telling his disciples what God will do, or has any desire to do, but only what he has the power to do. But having continued to think it over, I’m having my doubts as to whether this most recent view I’ve been entertaining in my mind is correct. I’m actually thinking I’d like to revisit my original view, as I may have given up on it prematurely! While Jason made some good and thoughtful points in his response, I’m beginning to think something was amiss in his first 3 arguments, and that they may not prove to be as much of a challenge to my original view as I first thought. More on that later though. :wink:

It’s ultimately tied to who God is - the resurrection is a consequence of who He is. ‘Everyone will be made alive in Christ.’ Why are you asking the question if you believe that? What the hell else could it be tied to? Chopped liver?

Here is an Essay I wrote which gives a little different perspective:

Matthew 10:28 “Fear not him who can kill the body, but he who kills both body and soul in Gehenna.”

There is a dangerous practice and falsely taught, but precept upon precept, line upon line, is a folly. It is the practice of undiscerning teachers or those who want to be teachers but are not equipped or prepared for such a task. Isaiah 28 warns that there was none to qualified to teach, so the Word of the Lord came to them precept upon precept and line upon line so that they would be ensnared, trapped, fall and broken.

So, it is dangerous to take Matthew 10:28 at face value without understanding the entire letter of Matthew, or at least the entire chapter 10. Let us look at Matthew 10 to find out the audience Jesus was talking to and the reason he gave them these words.

Matthew 10 (The Commission of the Twelve Disciples)

*Summoning His 12 disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to drive them out and to heal every disease and sickness. These are the names of the 12 apostles: First, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don’t take the road leading to other nations, and don’t enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, announce this: 'The kingdom of heaven has come near. 'Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those with skin diseases, drive out demons. You have received free of charge; give free of charge. Don’t take along gold, silver, or copper for your money-belts. Don’t take a traveling bag for the road, or an extra shirt, sandals, or a walking stick, for the worker is worthy of his food.

"When you enter any town or village, find out who is worthy, and stay there until you leave. Greet a household when you enter it, and if the household is worthy, let your peace be on it. But if it is unworthy, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town. I assure you: It will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

"Look, I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as harmless as doves. Because people will hand you over to sanhedrins and flog you in their synagogues, beware of them. You will even be brought before governors and kings because of Me, to bear witness to them and to the nations. But when they hand you over, don’t worry about how or what you should speak. For you will be given what to say at that hour, because you are not speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is speaking through you.

“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will even rise up against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of My name. But the one who endures to the end will be delivered. When they persecute you in one town, escape to another. For I assure you: You will not have covered the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”

"A disciple is not above his teacher, or a slave above his master. It is enough for a disciple to become like his teacher and a slave like his master. If they called the head of the house ’ Beelzebul,’ how much more the members of his household! “Therefore, don’t be afraid of them, since there is nothing covered that won’t be uncovered, and nothing hidden that won’t be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light. What you hear in a whisper, proclaim on the housetops. Don’t fear him who can kill the body but is not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”*

To have any understanding of Matthew 10 and the usage of Gehenna, we need to know the definition of Gehenna and its history. Depending on the audience, Gehenna represented something different. Then there are three interpretations concerning this Scripture, the first is that Jesus was speaking to everyone; the second is Jesus is speaking to the Pharisee; the third is Jesus is speaking to His Disciples. So what we must do is know what is Gehenna but also who was Jesus’s audience to discover the intention of those words.

So what is Gehenna?

Gehenna definition:
Gehenna is a word from Hebrew Gai-Ben-Hinnom or Gai-Hinnom meaning Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and is still called Gai Ben Hinnom in Modern Hebrew. It refers to a garbage dump in a deep valley outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning with brimstone to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is was the location where garbage, refuse, bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and unfortunately where the children of ancient Jews (Hebrews) were sacrificed to pagan idols (notably Moloch)* were thrown.

It is mentioned in the Old Testament several places, notably* 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; 2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6; 32:35. Jeremiah, 19:2-6,** speaks of the Jews worshipping pagan idols and committing abominations. Ancient Jews once sacrificed their children to pagan idols in the fires in Gehenna, and this was an abomination; in 2 Kings, 23:10, King Josiah forbade the sacrificing of children to Moloch at Gehenna.

Who was the audience Jesus was addressing?
a) Everyone
b) Pharisee
c) His 12 Disciples

The answer is C, His 12 Disciples. We know the audience from Matthew 10:1, “Summoning His 12 disciples…” We also know Jesus was addressing them from Matthew 10:5, “Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions…” It is sound and free from speculation. There is no indication He was speaking to everyone, and no indication He was speaking to the Pharisee.

Now we have defined the term Gehenna, and we have established a true proposition concerning the audience. We now must address the other propositions, as who is the “him” who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. This will help us identify the true usage of term Gehenna, and solve the mystery concerning Matthew 10:28.

Jesus describes two groups of people. First, those who who will betray, capture and kill you; and second, those who call you names and bear false witness against you. One group of people Jesus said to beware of, the other group of people he said do not worry about. One group of people who betray their children to death, the other group of people will insult you. One group of people who you should fear, another group of people who you should not.

Jesus tells His Disciples plainly the people whom they should not worry about in Matthew 10:18-19,"…they called the head of the house ’ Beelzebul,’ how much more the members of his household! Therefore, don’t be afraid of them, since there is nothing covered that won’t be uncovered, and nothing hidden that won’t be made known."

Jesus refers to this group earlier saying in his instruction in Matthew 10:11-14 “When you enter any town or village, find out who is worthy, and stay there until you leave. Greet a household when you enter it, and if the household is worthy, let your peace be on it. But if it is unworthy, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town.”

There is nothing to fear of the town that does not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town. They may call you servant of “Beelzebul”, there is nothing hidden that won’t be made known because Jesus was not Beelzebul, and neither were the Disciples followers of Beelzebul.

Jesus tells His Disciples plainly the people whom they should beware of in Matthew 10:16 he says,* “Look, I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as harmless as doves.”* Jesus told them they were going as prey to carnivorous animals! They needed to be shrewd as serpents concerning them and He speaks of these carnivorous animals specifically in Matthew 10:17,* “Because people will hand you over to sanhedrins and flog you in their synagogues, beware of them.” So be fearful (beware) of those of the sanhedrin!*

What is a sanhedrin?

The Sanhedrin Definition:
A council or assembly of judges; a tribunal in which every Jewish town judged matters of lesser importance. It is a great council at Jerusalem, consisting of the seventy one members, viz. scribes, elders, prominent members of the high priestly families and the high priest, the president of the assembly which judged the most important causes, inasmuch as the Roman rulers of Judea had left to it the power of trying such cases, and also of pronouncing sentence of death, with the limitation that a capital sentence pronounced by the Sanhedrin was not valid unless it was confirmed by the Roman procurator. Now knowing Jesus said to beware of the sanhedrin, and knowing what the sanhedrin consists of; we can look at the definition of Gehenna and choose appropriately the definition Jesus was alluding to concerning it.

Despite how they are considered by others, did Jesus classify the Disciples as:
a) Garbage
b) Criminals
c) Children of God

The answer is C, Children of God. Jesus gives a clue to the usage of Gehenna in Matthew 10:21, “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child…” Who were the brothers of the Children of God? Jesus gave us a clue to this in Matthew 10:5-6,* “…Don’t take the road leading to other nations, and don’t enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”*

What is Gehenna?
a) A garbage pit outside Jerusalem
b) A place for dead criminals and dead dishonored men
c) A place where apostate Jews murdered their children and sacrificed them to false gods
d) All the above.

The Disciples were sent out to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they were sent out to their brothers. So the answer is C, Jesus was using the definition of Gehenna, as “A place where apostate Jews murdered their children and sacrificed them to false gods.”

So now in conclusion:

Proposition statement #1: The audience Jesus was addressing was His Disciples.
Proposition statement #2: Do not fear them who insult you or not welcome you.
Proposition statement #3: Beware of the council or assembly, or tribunal of consisting of Jews.
Proposition statement #4: The Disciples are called brothers and children.
Proposition statement #5: Gehenna was the place where apostate Jews murdered their children and sacrificed them to false gods.

Propositional Conclusion:
When Jesus said, “fear not him who can kill the body, but him who kills both body and soul in Gehenna”. He was saying, do not fear the fact you can die on this journey but beware of the apostate Jews who are going to betray you and murder you just like they did in the ancient days where brother betrayed brother to death and fathers sacrificed their children to false gods."

Jeremiah 32:33-35
And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: and though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction. But they set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom [Gehenna], to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

studentoftheword.com

I guess I’m still missing out on what you mean by ‘soul’. Are you implying that these ‘apostate Jews’ are the ones that can kill both body and soul? While death in any form can kill the body, just what in this instance constitutes the killing of the soul? The passing through of fires of Gehenna? How?

I am not implying, I am saying that is what Jesus was talking about. The question of how comes by understanding what Gehenna actually is, what Gehenna was, and the judgment of Gehenna.

Chronological History of Gehenna:
As the Valley of Ben Hinnom and Tophet - Beautiful and bountiful valley

  1. Apostate Israel built alters to Baal and fires to sacrifice their children.
  2. Apostate Israel built alters to Molech and fires to sacrifice their children.
  3. Prophets of God warned Apostate Israel but were killed and thrown into the fires along with the children.
  4. Jeremiah and the prophets pronounce judgment against Israel for allowing the death of prophets and innocents.
    • The judgment is of Israel’s destruction and
  5. King Josia descrates the valley with corpses of dead animals to remind Israel of what happened.
  6. Valley of Ben Hinnom becomes a fire pit for burning refuge, garbage, and bury criminal bodies to remind Israel of the crime which occurred there,

So knowing the audience, you will know what he is referring to.

Matthew 23:29-34
*Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets; and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the Gehenna? *

Here Jesus is speaking of the sin of Israel (which was the death of innocents and the prophets in Gehenna), and the judgment of Gehenna which God pronounced upon those who participated in this sin.

Do understanding the history of Gehenna, and knowing exactly what the judgment of Gehenna was there is NO passing through the fires of Gehenna, the fires of Gehenna were fires made to Molech and Baal and the Apostates were sacrificed innocents and killed the prophets throwing them into the fires. Jesus was warning that those whom this judgment was pronounced against, still are sacrificing innocents and killing the prophets. So beware of them and the schemes. Do not be afraid of the one who destroy Israel beware of those who will destroy Israel and murder the prophets in the fires of Gehenna.

2 Kings 23:10 He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech (Gehenna).

Jeremiah 19:2-6 Go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you, and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and people of Jerusalem. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Listen! I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

Jeremiah 19:11-16
Say to them, ‘This is what the LORD Almighty says: I will smash this nation and this city just as this potter’s jar is smashed and cannot be repaired. They will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. This is what I will do to this place and to those who live here, declares the LORD. I will make this city like Topheth. The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth—all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.’ "

Jeremiah then returned from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and stood in the court of the LORD’s temple and said to all the people, "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: ‘Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.’ "

So in context, Jesus was in Matthew 10, addressing His Disciples. He was warning them of the Pharisee and Scribe who were sacrificing innocents and killing the prophets.

So beware of them and the schemes. Do not be afraid of the one who destroy Israel beware of those who will destroy Israel and murder the prophets in the fires of Gehenna.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.

They have destroyed their nation and murdered their soul.

Let us look at Luke 12:5

Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom to :be weary them who, after they have killed, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, be weary of them!

Who is the one who casts anyone into Gehenna? It wouldn’t be God, it neither entered his mind, nor a command. The only ones who ever threw anyone into the fires of Gehenna was Apostate Israelites who did not listen to God.

Now the judgment of Gehenna? That Jerusalem would be destroyed and like Gehenna, it will be defiled. Which came to pass in 70AD.

Earlier in this thread I offered what I thought to be a possible interpretation of Matthew 10:28. According to this interpretation, “Gehenna” was used by Christ as a figure or emblem for the national judgment that was soon to befall the nation of Israel before that generation passed away (Matt 23:32-38; cf. Jer 19). From the larger context of Matthew 10:16-23, it was deduced that the expression “kill the body” (soma) refers to the flogging that Christ declared some would suffer as a result of their faith in him (v. 17), while killing “the soul” (psuche) refers to the complete taking of one’s life (v. 21). To be destroyed “both soul and body in Gehenna” means to be killed amidst the overthrow of the Jewish nation. This latter scenario was to be feared above all others (hence Christ’s words, “Do not fear…rather fear…”), which is why, during the Olivet Discourse, Christ gave specific instructions to his disciples on how to avoid it (Matt 24:15-20; cf. Luke 21:20-21), that they might thereby be “saved” and “gain [their] souls” (Matt 24:13; Luke 21:19).

Now, the most forceful objection that I think was raised against this particular interpretation of Matthew 10:28 (and by implication Luke 12:4-5, which I understand to be a parallel account) is that this interpretation seems to require that the word “kill” (apokteino) be understood in a limited sense. Such a usage of apokteino would thus make it an exception to how the word is used throughout the rest of the NT, and consequently less likely to be correct. However, I believe such an objection is invalid for the following reasons:

First, it is evident that the word soma (“body”) is being used in a limited sense in Matt 6:25, which is, notably, the only other verse where Christ distinguishes between * soma* and psuche. If Christ was employing soma in Matt 6:25 to embrace every aspect of a person’s self from a physical, biological standpoint, then that aspect of us which Christ says is sustained by food and drink (the psuche) would necessarily be included in this general, inclusive meaning - for food and drink is necessary to keep our bodies (in the fullest sense of the word) alive. That is, soma, when used in a general sense, necessarily includes that aspect of us which Christ implies is sustained by food and drink, as well as that aspect of us which may be clothed or stripped naked. But because Christ distinguishes between the words soma and psuche by limiting soma to that which may be clothed and stripped naked, and excludes from the meaning of the word that aspect of us which is sustained by food and drink, soma must be understood in a limited sense. Thus, it is not so much apokteino (“kill”) that is to be understood as denoting less than its usual meaning, but soma (“body”). Or, to put it another way, if the meaning of apokteino in these verses is to be understood in a limited sense, it is only because soma is being used in a limited sense.

Second, the very fact that soma and psuche are distinguished by Christ in Matt 10:28 (and by implication, in Luke 12:4-5, which is undoubtedly a parallel account) makes it an exception to how the words are used throughout Scripture. The only other place in the NT where * psuche* is distinguished from *soma * is in 1 Thess 5:23. But here, * pnuema * (“spirit”) is distinguished from both words - a fact which weakens, or at least renders problematic, any argument that psuche (when distinguished from soma) denotes some aspect of man’s nature that continues to exist in a disembodied state after death. And Matthew 10:28 (and again, Luke 12:4-5 by implication) is also the only example in the NT where soma is spoken of as being able to be killed or destroyed apart from psuche, or life, necessarily being killed or destroyed as well. This, too, forces us to understand Christ’s use of psuche and apokteino in Matt 10:28 as being exceptions to how the terms are used throughout the NT.

Third, our interpretation of this verse must be governed by the Scriptural meaning of the Hebrew nephash (of which psuche is being employed by Christ as the Greek equivalent - see Isaiah 10:18). When we allow Scripture to define this word, the idea that Christ is talking about some ethereal part of us that consciously exists after death in a “disembodied state” is shown to be completely invalid and without divine sanction. For according to the OT it is the “soul” (nephash) that is said to go to sheol, the domain of death (Job 33:18, 22; Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48; cf. Acts 2:27), and in Ecclesiastes 9:10 we read that “there is no activity or thought or knowledge or wisdom in sheol" (cf. Eccl 9:5-6; Ps. 6:5; 88:10-12; 115:17; Isa. 38:18-19).

Fourth, the fact that there is only one other example in all of Scripture in which “body and soul” are spoken of as being “destroyed” (Isaiah 10:16-18), is reason enough for this example to be taken into consideration when seeking to interpret Matthew 10:28 and its parallel in Luke 12. And when we do that, it becomes clear that for body and soul to be “destroyed” is equivalent to what happens when “a sick man wastes away.” There is no indication in these verses that Isaiah had in mind the pagan idea that the “soul” is some aspect of a person which continues to exist after death in a disembodied state.

Thus, any objection to the word “kill” being understood in a limited sense in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 on the grounds that it would be an exception to the rule overlooks the following facts: 1) that soma is clearly being used in a limited sense in Matthew just four chapters back; 2) that Christ’s distinguishing between soma and psuche is itself an exception to how the words are used throughout Scripture; 3) that psuche is being used by Christ as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew nephash, which nowhere denotes that which is popularly thought of as the “immortal soul”; and 4) that the only other example in Scripture where “body and soul” are said to be “destroyed” is in Isaiah 10:16-18, which provides no support for (and is in fact against) the traditional understanding of Matt 10:28.

I’m going to disagree based on what we read in the parallel passage in Luke’s gospel:

“In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.” - Luke 12:1

The term ‘first of all’ gives the connotation that the teachings that Jesus presents in the following verses are given pre-eminent to the Twelve. However it also implies that though the Twelve are the primary recepients, it doesn’t preclude the ‘imnnumerable multitude of people’ from receiving it at the same time, doubtless pressed upon each other to hear what the Master is saying. The lesson is for anyone with ears to hear.

I’m going to attack this from a different angle.

As a preliminary to my proposal, I’m going to assume that the ‘soul’ is the ego, or personality, or self. And from that definition, I’m also going to assume that there is a certain ‘quality of being’ within every person that is indicative of the health of the soul. And I will go further to say that often, but not always, one’s physical condition can be an indicator of the state of one’s soul.

For example, if you see a strung out, heroin addict stretched out on the sidewalk in ragged condition begging for money, one can assume that the state of that person’s soul is rather unhealthy. From outward appearances we can only speculate what the person might have gone through to get to this point in his life. Maybe he was a crack baby. Maybe his parents were addicts. Maybe he started well in life, had a good job, maybe some family, a wife, but gone off the wrong track and spiraled down. Or maybe he was simply born into poverty and started selling drugs to support himself and that led to his usage. In various run ins with the law. Any myriad of reasons or circumstances could have led him to this point. The point I’m making is that what ever it was, there was a progression.

On the other hand, if you see a man with a nice suit driving away from a modest house and car, after kissing his wife and kids, going to work, one can assume that this person’s soul is healthy, because he seems to be in a healthy environment and physically well off. And he is taking responsibility to his family by going to work and showing affection with his wife and kids. Again, there was a progression to get to this point in his life.

Now, I know that the bible says that man looketh to the outside, by God looketh on the heart. But the fact is, we will often judge by appearances. That in itself is not necessarily bad, but we would have to observe more closely the person to determine if, in fact, the person’s soul matches that with what we observe. It could very well be that the heroin addict is a normal guy playing the part to elicit more funds than his regular 9-5 job is affording in order to paying his 2010 Audi. It could very well be that the man with the nice family is actual an alcohol and wife-beater behind closed doors. But generally, what we see is usually what we get.

Much of the time, and this is key, the condition of one’s soul is directly related to desires and decisions that we make. We choose poorly, we are going to go through life poorly. We chose well, we are more apt to go through life well, barring uncontrollable disasters.

Keeping all this in mind, and please bear with me, let’s look at the passage in question (along with the parallel passage in Luke):

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” – Matthew 10:28

It would be very instructive is we can identify the pronouns in context with the passage. The instructions have an implied ‘you’ which points back to the Twelve, as in ‘(You) fear not’. But in light of Luke’s passage, Jesus could very well be addressing the ‘innumerable multitude of people’ milling around the Lord, listening in on His teaching with the disciples, and by extension, us who have had these words passed down to us and are reading them today.

‘…fear not them’. Who is this speaking of? Well, in the context of Matthew 10, it seems to be pointing to those who persecute the subject of the phrase. Luke seems to indicate the same, and although the Pharisees are mentioned, I don’t think it is necessarily directed at them. It seems to be a general statement that there are those that can physically kill the body, and we ought not to fear them, for even though they might kill the body, they have no control over the soul.

‘…but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.’ Now here is where I’m going to diverge from the common thinking. And I may be wrong, but I think it is worth consideration.

What if the ‘him’ in this segment of the passage is not speaking of God? But rather of ourselves?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but consider that in the oldest Greek manuscripts were in all in upper case lettering, including pronouns, which makes it sometimes hard to determine proper pronouns for God, seeing are they are normally capitalized. Some English translations will capitalize He, Him, His, when referring to God as a matter of style. But others, like the KJV, one has to read the context to determine whether the pronoun refers to Deity.

God is in the saving business, not destroying. Jesus (who incidentally holds the keys to death and hell) said, “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” (Luke 9:56). So to insert God into Matt 1:28 makes no sense. There is not indication in the previous verses that the pronoun refers to God, nor in Luke 12:5 for that matter. In fact, the very next few verses in both passages instructs *‘fear ye not therefore’ *because the Father knows when the sparrow falls and how many hair are on your head. So are we to fear God or not?

What if the pronoun ‘he’ in this case is self-referential? That is, in turning the pronoun around on ourselves we could read it this way:

“And (you) fear not them (anyone who can physically kill) which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul : but rather fear him (you) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” – Matthew 10:28

Luke differs from Matthew in that it reads, *‘Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell’ *as opposed to ‘destroy both body and soul in hell’. And so one would naturally appeal to I Peter 2:4, ‘For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment’, as evidence of identification in Luke. However, what action is performed in the related passage in Jude 6?

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

Who moved? Seems the angels made a choice, they left their habitation (with God) and that cast them into hell. In their sin, like Adam and Eve, they fell.

In the matter of Adam and Eve, a choice was made. That choice was detrimental in that it brought death. What is interesting is that physical death did not happen right away, even though God said ‘in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die’. Adam lived some 800 years after Seth and presumably longer after the births of Cain and Abel. But the process of death happened on the day Adam and Eve ate of the tree, both body and soul. The body in that it will no longer live forever, though 930 years is certainly a long time. And there body felt the stress of death in that the woman would suffer in childbirth and the man would toil in work. But the soul also started the process of death too. They were ashamed and tried to hide. There was a fundamental change in relationship. A decay of the soul as well as the body. A process toward the soul’s death.

And by the way, this ‘soul’s death’ the reason that the Tree was banned from Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:22. They could not be permitted to live forever with a dying soul.

You know when you’ve sinned. You know when you’ve done wrong. Your gut turns inside out. You feel guilty and ashamed. And it causes great stress on the body, because there is an imbalance between the soul and body. I found it interesting that Jason used the phrase ‘you are dying in your sins’ in his explanation of this verse. Yes, dying in our life, our soul, because of the choices we make. It is a progression.

We cast ourselves into hell. We destroy our body and soul with our sin. We have that power. It is we ourselves that we have to fear.